00:00
Today, we're talking with John Allen. You know him as Mr. Ballin, the guy in the flannel with the strange, dark, and mysterious stories. In SEAL training, they called him Shakespeare. There was one strip of sand where the instructors left students alone, and John spent it telling stories to keep his class sane. That instinct survived a grenade in Afghanistan and a medical retirement. Then, it made him famous.
00:20
They called me Shakespeare Folsom, you know.
00:23
For telling stories?
00:24
For organizing a theater program. We did cats. I have regrets.
00:29
Today we're covering how that happened, what the success cost him, and the craft of a story five million strangers will stop scrolling for. His new book is The Terror Within, nine illustrated stories, four never told anywhere.
00:42
The Terror Within, great title. My memoir's got a similar one. The Terror Within 14 Feet of My Ball. It's about the crab cat.
00:51
Partly through, John tells a few stories from his military years he's never told anywhere else. And it gets kind of heavy. I'm glad he trusted me with it. Stick around after the episode, and I'll pop back in and untangle the conversation. There's going to be some surprises at the end, like there always is. Let's go down to the basement.
01:15
John, welcome to the basement.
01:17
Thank you, man. All right. So happy to be here, dude. Are you really? No, really. No, really. No, I'll be honest. Straight up about it. Like I have seen in our comments for years, not like, oh, dude, I love the Wi-Fi. I was like, this is crap what you do, but more like, dude, you and AJ, you got to get together. Like what did the, these are my two shows like Mr. Bone and the Y files. And, and so I've always been aware of you and your show. I see clips of you all the time.
01:47
I saw you went on Sean Ryan and I was like secretly like, that's fucking awesome. Like, I don't think I can swear on this show. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, okay. And I, and no, just, you're someone that I've always really respected. I love, like, you talked about craft before the show. Like, it's so obvious that you put so much care into building out your show. And like, it's, It's so uniquely yours, and I know how much work goes into this and how much skill goes into this, and I've just respected you from afar, and it's really cool to finally be collaborating, as they say.
02:21
That was very sweet.
02:23
I wasn't going to start with this, but since you were so nice, I probably have to credit you for at least my early success because I was just floundering in obscurity, doing my weird stuff with the fish, and my brother's like, you should post on TikTok, and I was like...
02:36
No one watches this shit on TikTok. He's like, well, Mr. Ballin does it. I said, I don't know how that is. So I go and I see you. I'm like, wow, it's working for him. So I did it. It didn't work for me on TikTok. It worked for one video and then I shadow banned.
02:47
But it did drive some people into the channel. And it was because of you. That's awesome.
02:52
You kicked the door in.
02:53
It's so weird. Like the TikTok thing, man. Like, so you said the little story there. I was at Great Wolf Lodge, the indoor water park. I have three kids. They're very young. And our family vacation of choice is always like some indoor water park or anything to do with water. That's our family vacations. It's the best.
03:14
I figured you'd have like a weird love hate relationship. I mean, I do. It's complicated, right?
03:18
Yeah. Actually, I was earlier today. I was actually in, uh, in Los Angeles for like an advertising conference and I was near the Pacific ocean. And, and I, it's funny, like I go down to the water. I go for a little run. It's like so beautiful. And I'm just like staring at the ocean and remembering what it was like, you know, in the seal, in the seal training. Um, But like back to the water park thing. So I post the story about the missing hikers. And like personally, I've always been really into just as a consumer, I've been really into strange, dark and mysterious true stories or things that are purported to be true.
03:55
I used to love watching that channel, Dark Five. I don't know if you are familiar with it. I just love that channel. It's like if I was going to put something on the internet, if I was going to put on something on YouTube, it was always going to be something like that.
04:07
And I told that story and then I come back from being in the water park and it's gone viral. But like, I'm a 30 something year old dad of multiple kids. I was like in the military and I did intentionally post something on social media. It isn't like I didn't do that.
04:26
Well, you were trying a few different things, right?
04:27
I was. But truly, nothing came close. So it never really felt like I actually was like, oh, I'm a content creator. Are there really TikTok videos of you dancing? They've been eradicated.
04:38
What? Did they exist, though?
04:40
They did. No, the worst one was, I think, it was so cringey. I'm pretty good about talking about stupid stuff I've done. The worst one I did was, so this is pre-virality. This is like, get up and show us. no it wasn't a dance it wasn't a dance it was uh there was this there was a trend on tiktok this is like late 2019 where early tiktok and probably still today it was like almost exclusively kids it's like teenagers like i i was generations older and i'm not even old but like for tiktok like you're old right And the trend was these kids would like tell a sort of innocuous story that was sort of like maybe about some stupid thing that happened to them.
05:28
Like when they like spilled milk on their pants in front of their friends at school or something, but they would do it while singing into the auto tune feature on TikTok. So it's like this weird, like you're singing a song about how you like pooped your pants when you were in fifth grade to like auto tune. And I was like, I should do that. And so I told a story about something to do with the Navy SEAL training. But like, I remember I had like, I did like 50 takes. I'm like sitting in my truck outside of Starbucks and in Doylestown, Pennsylvania, where I was living at the time. And I finally had it.
06:00
I'm like, that's great. That's, that's the one. And then it was like, who's this? Who?
06:07
Oh no, that's the worst.
06:09
And then I'm like, all right, that's bad. But the dude, yeah, like everything just sort of took off. And even now, like, you know, TikTok was where it began and I transitioned it to YouTube and it's like, that's a whole thing now.
06:22
But I think people say this and they feign humility in a way like, oh, I can't believe this is happening. But like, really, I was like, I'm going to go be a Navy SEAL. I'm going to devote myself to this. This is going to be my thing. And I fucking did it. I became a Navy SEAL. This is like a career path. And I couldn't have been more proud. Like, this is it. And then, you know, shit goes sideways. I'm getting hurt in Afghanistan. I actually stuck around in the teams for a couple of years. I did another deployment before I was medically retired, but it was because of the injury.
06:54
But then it's like I'm suddenly a civilian. And it's like, dude, now what? Now what? I'll just post cringe stuff on TikTok. But it's just weird. I feel like such an imposter and also confident. I'm very confident in what I do.
07:10
But like I was at this advertising conference, you know, literally today and yesterday. And it went great. Like we're partnered with Sirius. They're awesome. And we want to meet clients. And like we had these great meetings with like advertisers and brokers. It was great. But the whole time I'm like, what am I doing? Like, what is this? How am I being like ushered on stage? And here's Mr. Ball and like, whoa. It's like so surreal, you know?
07:37
It's so weird. Jen and I just came back from LA and we kept saying, whose life is this? This is weird. It's so unlikely what happened, certainly to me, but because you're much younger than I am. So unlikely. Did you know how?
07:49
Here's what I tell people about YouTube is if I knew how hard it was, I probably wouldn't have done it.
07:53
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09:11
But people don't realize how, because they're like, Mr. Ball is so huge.
09:16
It was quick. Yeah, it was rapid. Like, I...
09:20
The weird thing is when I really think about like, where have I in my life used, let's say Navy SEAL, my experience as a Navy SEAL, where have I used those things that I sort of learned about myself in my life? Where have I done it? And honestly, I only have one place that I can honestly say, I am. channeled my inner Navy seal. And it was in the first six months of making YouTube videos. And it was because to put out consistent videos when it's basically a one-man show over and over and over again, it sounds so silly.
09:55
It was the video, dude. Like, what's that?
09:58
Dude, to, to put a script together, even, even if you don't even adhere to the script to just make something make sense that can be translated across like different generations and like to do the research and then to be on camera. Like that's not a natural thing. Like you're, you're awesome at it. Like you're really a natural. I wasn't. And like early on, I had to sort of like do so many takes so many takes.
10:21
And no prompter, right? You're just like glancing?
10:23
No, no. Well, because I spent so much time researching it, I go right into recording that a lot of time it was fresh. But no, I didn't use a prompter at all.
10:31
I tried that. I couldn't do it. I need the prompter.
10:32
It's brutal. It's brutal without the prompter, dude. Even now, we have a prompter now, but it's almost ingrained to sort of go off the cuff a little bit. But I remember having so many moments in the first six months of doing YouTube when it's objectively being really successful.
10:52
I have lived an incredibly modest life before that. Like I did not come from any sort of money or anything. And like almost literally overnight, you know, videos are being posted on YouTube that are making thousands of dollars in a fucking day, like in a day that's happening. There was a video, I remember I posted a video that it was like, post next to like $18,000 for like one video. And I have never even come close to this. And so it's like the work that I'm putting in is being almost instantly rewarded.
11:26
And it's also like, I love this content. I really do.
11:30
but the grind is so intense. And I would have moments where I'm like on my third Red Bull and I've been up for like three, not three, like two days. And I have, I know I have easy four or five, six hours before I even record. And I got to edit it myself. I would literally say to myself, I'm like delirious.
11:50
you were a fucking Navy seal.
11:52
You'd have to psych yourself up.
11:53
You can outwork the other aspiring YouTubers out there. And like, so help me God I did. But there were stretches of time that it sounds so silly, but like, seal training and buds is like objectively a challenging thing but it's so structured here's what you're gonna do either you do it or you don't but with a creative venture where it's like all on you there's no end you just sort of like go as much as you can you work as hard as you can and then sometimes like when things don't go well like there's no one there to be like don't worry buddy like get him next time like no you just gotta pick yourself back up and do it And the hours are crazy.
12:32
The pressure is insane. I think what people also don't know is like, if you've hit any level of success on YouTube at all.
12:39
You really stop thinking in terms of, boy, this video did really good. No, it's like, boy, I hope it doesn't suck. That's it. The metric is, I hope the views aren't so bad that the channel starts to deteriorate.
12:52
Well, you know what sucks when you post it, right? That's terrible. I worked 80 hours a night and it sucks. And they're going to tell me it sucks. Yes, dude.
13:00
every week but it's like the algorithm unfortunately like you're tethered to it i mean like you're foolish if you if you don't think you are if you want to make a career over any amount of time doing youtube doing like digital media today you are beholden on some level to the performance of your video in the algorithm and so you have to sort of play the game of understanding what's going to make it perform what's not without selling yourself out and my god like You get the hate comments, that's part of life. You get sort of the criticism that way. But I started to attach my self-worth to the performance of a video, which is so silly.
13:38
Yeah, but you're speaking to my heart right now.
13:40
It's awful.
13:42
And I stopped doing true crime. I've only done a few true crimes because it's so risky with the algorithm. Oh, yeah. So even early on, before you were in the partner program, you must have been like, am I going to see the orange dollar sign? All the time.
13:54
All the time.
13:55
Because it's like, oh, I don't get paid this week.
13:56
Yep. oh yeah oh good i put in all this time and i suffered for this and it's a great episode but it will do it might even hurt my channel because it's demonetized we we had a deluge of we i it was reds and oranges like there there was there was a video oh my god like it's it's funny because you totally get this like The video was like 50 some odd minutes long. So like long, it's about an hour long. And like right out the gate, it was dominating. Like it was, it was, I think it was like 10 million views in the span of like a few weeks or something.
14:31
Wow.
14:32
It was like, and even better was at the, it's a buddy of mine, Ephraim Matos. He's a former Navy SEAL. We served together. He, An unbelievable story. Forget how you feel about like geopolitics and stuff. He's a Navy SEAL, right? And I think he went to Iraq when he was, or in Syria or something when he was a SEAL. We didn't deploy together. He left the military. He left the SEAL teams because he felt a calling to go fight ISIS because the US military wasn't in his mind doing enough. And he literally left the military and by himself went to Iraq and fought ISIS.
15:09
He joined up with faction military groups and filmed it. And he ended up- And filmed it. And he saved this little girl. There's a video that made it all over the world because this little girl was pinned down outside of Raqqa in Syria. I guess it was Syria.
15:26
her whole family's been killed. They've been lined up at a wall, they've all been shot down, and it's just bodies against the wall. And Ephraim had found out, because he was working with this underground group that was fighting ISIS and trying to save victims, that they had left this pile, and they believed there was one little girl who had survived, and she was laying under the bodies of her family. And so it's broad daylight. There are all these trucks with like their black ISIS flags and everything like parading around the area. And Ephraim goes up there behind an Abrams tank and he runs on camera, picks this girl up under a hail of gunfire and runs her back behind the tank and gets shot in the process.
16:06
He gets shot and he saves this girl's life.
16:10
And so I told his story of, he was the guy that when I was in training for the, this is actually a very humbling moment that Ephraim and I are connected. In the early part of SEAL training, there's this test you gotta do. I think it's called, oh, life-saving. It's just called life-saving. It seems like not a big deal, but it's brutal. You have to jump in the water and the way a lifeguard is trained, you kind of do a lifeguard save of your instructor. but they pick like the six foot eight beast who's going to fight you in the water.
16:40
And they refer to it as like the puking evolution. Cause there's no way to do it without like just totally being gassed.
16:45
And you're on no sleep.
16:46
Oh, this is, this is like a day after hell week when you've been up for like a week. And so it, because technically you have to pass this lifeguarding test anyways.
16:55
I get out of the water after failing my various attempts. I eventually passed it. And like everyone's just done attempts and everyone's miserable. And we're all like shivering on the pool deck. And I'm like dramatically heaving. Like, oh, look, I've just, I've just done the test. I was really like hamming it up to make sure everybody knew how hard I tried. And Ephraim just goes, shut the fuck up.
17:18
shut up and he like got in trouble for even speaking out of turn but he's like he was like shut the fuck up it's hard for everyone and I was like that's a good lesson right and i was like yep stop performing like stop performing your drama um but i i opened the episode with with that little story and then this and ephraim by the way is like the most like non you wouldn't think wow that dude would drop everything go fight isis he's like this totally normal guy i mean he's very skilled like an incredible shot like tactically a brilliant guy but just the most normal dude just like doesn't swear He doesn't cuss, just a normal dude, super low key.
18:00
And I told his story and he actually started this charity called Operation Stronghold Rescue, where he goes to conflict zones with no help from any government and rounds up support from locals that are often like family and stuff. and just like does guerrilla missions to often save people that are like in the middle of genocides and like mass killings and stuff. And he saves so many people. He films it all, but he had no funding because he has no idea how to do it. I do this video. This is going to make me sound so lame.
18:30
We do this video where I have this big call to action at the end, like go support Ephraim. He has this thing, Stronghold Rescue, and it's a great charity. his funding jumped, I think it's like to millions of dollars now. And it's like largely on the strength of him and his story, but this was the mouthpiece. And so this story goes mega viral. It's got like so many views, demonetized.
18:49
Why?
18:50
I don't know. Bodies?
18:52
Probably, probably. But you're doing the, this is, that makes me sound so lame, but it's like, this is a video that was probably, it would have made hundreds of thousands of dollars. And it's like none.
19:03
But the upshot is, it was so cool with Ephraim. It was like the amazing silver lining. So anyways, it's just like, that's the nature of the beast though, you know?
19:13
Does Zephrin still do that? Can we still support the sheriff?
19:15
Oh, yeah. How does he get through the red tape overseas with doing it? Dude, I don't know. At this point, he's, like, connected with, like, parts of the world that only you get connected if you're in this world. But he is, like, you know, a fiercely, like, religious, just very driven guy who is just, like... I mean, honestly, he's the guy that's probably gonna die in a hail of gunfire saving somebody's life. And, like, this is his calling. Like, he's just... I'll like talk to him. He's like, I'm in Cambodia right now. I'm like, of course you are, you know, but he's, he's so chill.
19:48
Like he came to, I did a show a couple of years ago and in Massachusetts and he like showed up unannounced for it. And he's like, he like waited in line to like come up and see me and like,
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21:09
But he's, yeah, he's incredible, man. There's some incredible people in the military. I think that people look at, I'm generalizing, but I think there's a lot of thought that like, there's like an archetype to those that like join the military, especially special operations. But it's like, The people I've met in the SEAL teams, which is just a little part of Special Operations, are some of the most interesting and just brilliant people. There was this guy who was this total skinny, goofy guy, just looks like he weighs 100 pounds kind of guy.
21:42
He's got this scraggly beard.
21:45
But he was gifted at everything, everything. Didn't matter what it was, he would be the best at it. He set the course record for our, there's a shooting course that we do in Mississippi that like for the history of the Navy SEAL teams, like every Navy SEAL goes and does the shooting course. So it's like the best shooters of one of the most elite groups in the military. This is where they train. And at the end of their block of training, they do this shooting course. He goes and blows it away.
22:16
He sets the record.
22:16
Blows it, blows it away. Like he, he, he beat the instructors. Oh yeah, man. Like whatever. like he he one time we're like in the gym we're talking about who can deadlift the most weight he doesn't lift he does not lift any weights zero weights and like 400 was on the bar and he's like oh i can do that goes over deadlifts 400 pounds like traditional he he like picked up skateboarding while we're in afghanistan and there's nowhere to skateboard it's like rocks but there was this little strip of of linoleum in our crappy gym we had and he like quickly learned how to like 360 flip and like front side flip like immediately i Anyone can do it.
22:50
He became a professional wakeboarder just on the side over one summer. He's like, yeah, I picked it up. He's competing in wakeboarding competitions.
22:58
I love people like this.
22:59
Dude, but there are just people out there that are just so amazing. And you see him a lot in special operations, actually. It's pretty cool. I think all operators are a little crazy. A little tweaked. One of my buddies, this dude.
23:11
he uh he was just a total adrenaline junkie and he he was just known for just like getting hurt all the time he also he uh he's a dog handler and the dogs are like amazing they're terrifying they're belgian malinois i don't know if you're familiar with these dogs just fierce animals these are not normal dogs and they're so well trained and like he would bring his dog into my hut in afghanistan and the dog's like looking at me and he'd like i'm gonna go get something to eat and i'm sitting in the room with this dog that will not touch me but it'll stare you down but it'll stare me down but so we we had a skydiving block where like one of the things you're taught is uh if you pull your if you're under canopy And even if the canopy is degraded in some way, if you can land it, you don't ditch it.
23:58
You don't go to your reserve because, you know, your reserve might be worse than your main.
24:02
Right.
24:02
And so you're taught you absolutely, you do not ditch if you can land it, even if you're going to really hurt yourself. But the reality is when you're actually under canopy and you're careening down and you got some stuff going on, you're probably going to ditch it. Like that's the reality of it. And so I remember there was one night where we did a, it's called a, a wall locker jump where you have like a hundred pounds of gear on and the stupid pack that you like dangle down by this long cord. It's like, it's a, it's a joke. It's what you would do with like a high altitude jump where you need, you need every piece of kit for every environment.
24:33
It's designed to be like, we're going to give you all the stuff and we're going to see if you can jump. And so it's like really sketchy to land under the best of conditions.
24:39
Are you standing there while they're loading you up? And you're like, dude, how much? Oh dude, it's a joke. What do I need all that for?
24:45
You're an idiot.
24:45
Five flashlights?
24:47
And he, uh, His shoot was all jacked up. And like normally we have radios that once you're sort of low enough to the ground, you can call it in and be like, yeah, I have an issue and we're in training.
24:58
Doesn't call it in that he's got such, he can only turn the chute one way. The other side is fully compromised. And basically, the way skydiving or any parachute works is that when you pull down on the toggles, it flares your parachute and you slow yourself down. It's really similar to flying a plane, not that I've done it, but it's like flaring the wings slows you down. And he basically couldn't flare his parachute. And he's torching towards the ground. And you need to flare to land safely. Oh, dude. Torching. And all he did. And it's nighttime. He can't even see the drops. Oh, no.
25:28
Not even on night vision. Just nighttime. And so he's blasting in with his hundred pounds of gear. And he just goes, coming in hot. Blast into the ground. I think he broke his ankle or something. Just got up. He's like, yeah, whatever. But, like, me? I am a Navy SEAL. And I wouldn't have done that. I probably would have ditched the main. But, you know, anyways. Pretty funny guys.
25:48
I love those guys. That was a good segue. Something I wanted to ask you.
25:55
Your old bio said, that's a quote, just another number one world-ranked video game player, turned philosopher, turned Navy SEAL, turned nonprofit CEO, number one in the world. Yeah. At skate.
26:07
At skate. Is that true?
26:07
Were you number one?
26:08
So the truth is, is I was briefly ranked in the top 30. Okay. And I know for a fact I was 30th for sure, but I'd only found out like after, so here's the story.
26:22
So skate came out like in 2000 and maybe like nine or eight or something. It's like,
26:27
Are you grinding leaderboards while flunking out of UMass?
26:29
Yeah, same time frame. And so I would actually get super stoned and I would play skate. And I would sit in my mom's basement and I would just play skate. And so it used to be like, you know, Tony Hawk's Pro Skater was the precursor. And it was like left square, up circle was sort of how you did tricks. But on skate, it was the first time that everything was done with the two joysticks, like all tricks. It was just slight variations of the joystick. And so anybody can flick the joysticks around and do random tricks, but to be precise required a lot of practice.
27:03
And so the game that you played online for skate is you, it's a sort of like horse and basketball where like somebody sets a trick and you got to match it or you get a letter. It's S-K-A-T-E. And again, anybody can do some random trick, but can you do a trick on command? And it's very, it's right. and i became like savant level good at doing these tricks and i had i am not doing this to set records i didn't even know like this is early my playing online for any game so i'm not thinking at all about like how good i am at this game But after playing for quite a while, I began to notice, I think it actually was on Skate 2.
27:43
I didn't even notice on Skate 1. Skate 1, I crossed Skate 2. I was doing the same thing.
27:47
I used to get on with people that I knew were really good, and I would intentionally give up letters to make it more challenging for myself. And it pissed people off, but I'm like, I don't care.
27:59
Of course.
28:00
One day I open up my PlayStation and I'm just, I noticed that there's always these little like male icons in the top right corner of my thing. And I just, I don't, I never thought about it. Didn't, I've been playing video games since I was like nine. I'm like an offline gamer other than skate, you know? And I was like, what is, I've always wondered what that is. And so I open it up and there are like probably thousands. Yeah. just so many messages i i held the scroll down button it's like it just kept on going all the way down compliments mostly mostly people telling me how much they hated me dude you suck but it was people being like you're the number one world ranked player like you're terrible like i couldn't beat you man you're not as good as like the other guys but it all these references to me being the best player in the world and i'm like what Oh, you didn't know?
28:49
I didn't know.
28:50
Let's talk about the number the Fed doesn't want you to say out loud. PCE inflation just came in at 4.1%. That's double their own 2% target, a target they've now missed five years in a row. And here's the part of that that should really get your attention. The Fed's own projection says we don't get back to 2% until 2028. That's three more years of your dollar buying less than it does today. You're already feeling it. Grocery bills are up 32% since 2020. Retirees have lost 26% of their purchasing power.
29:20
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29:57
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30:12
And so I had invitations from EA not to be like, you're going to join the skate team. It was like, do you want to play the next beta for the next skate game?
30:21
But months after the fact, I've missed the boat. And I pulled up the current leaderboard. I think it was like 29th or 30th. But it's like of the world. And they only show the top 50. And there's like probably at least several hundred thousand, if not a million people playing this game. And then it actually was funny. I didn't really enjoy playing the game because no longer is it really about fun. It became like, well, I got to maintain this ranking now.
30:45
That's an interesting personality point because it came back around again. Yeah, dude. I just want to make videos. And then you crushed it and you're like, oh, now the pressure's on.
30:53
Dude, it's true. It became a job. It's not fun anymore.
30:57
That's how it works. It is, but it's...
30:59
It's a different kind. It's a job. It's a job. That video game became a job. And so I could only play it, really, and enjoy it, I should say, offline. And I was exceptionally good at it, but the fun was that I got to beat people
31:13
Always.
31:13
I'd never lost. I just never lost. I mean, I did, but it was like so rare that I would give people four letters and just like, I'd spend an hour just like never giving up my final letter because it was fun. And then that was it. It was just, that's what I did. And then it was like, well, wait a minute. Now I have to maintain it. It was just, it wasn't fun anymore.
31:30
Actually, that was one of the, when I got to Bud's SEAL training, they make you give your fact. And that was my fact. That was your fact, skate? I was like, I was briefly top ranked in an obscure video game 10 years ago. Oh, you had to get wedgies for that.
31:43
They were like, shut the fuck up. This one saved a kick from fire.
31:47
I was a national champion wrestler, D1. And I'm like, oh, I briefly was really good at a weird skateboarding game.
31:55
That's hilarious. The nonprofit stuff is interesting. What was the Operators Association? Were you kind of mentoring young people going into the startups?
32:04
Yeah, dude, I appreciate you. Yeah, there was a period of time. So I was medically retired from the Navy in end of 2017.
32:12
And then, you know, Mr. Ballin, you know, the viral moment, the posting of the hiker video happened in very early 2020. So there's like, you know, two year window there where I did stuff. And what I did is I, in an effort to find myself a job, I wound up connecting with some sort of random people in New York that were like business people, one of which is a great guy, this guy, Jordan Selleck, who's this former investment banker turned entrepreneur and like, It just so happened he was sort of trying to help his buddy who was a fighter pilot who was like trying to find his way in the world.
32:46
We connected on LinkedIn. It's a whole thing. It turned into Jordan, who's like this master networker. He says to me, he's like, dude, if you want a job, you can totally just like go apply for jobs or really you should just like network and meet people because you have no idea how powerful that is. One thing leads to another. And before long, Jordan and I are organizing this networking event in New York for I'm going to bring all the transitioning Navy SEALs that I know. There's many. Or guys that have gotten out that don't have a job yet. And then Jordan's going to bring all his business connections and we have these events.
33:18
And so we have like this inaugural event in New York City in like May of 2018 or whatever it was, 2017, 2018. And I went to be a participant to like go and meet employers. But like naturally, I sort of emceed the event. Hey, guys, we're going to get started. I got my suit, you know, I've just bought. And people assumed that that was my job. And so nobody, no employer talked to me. And I was like, what the hell? Like I helped organize this. Nobody wants a job. But it came out later, they're like, oh, we just assumed this was your job, that this is what you do.
33:48
That turned into a charity, Elite Meet. You didn't bring it up, but it's sort of in tandem with Operators Association.
33:54
I and Jordan, we were a team for a couple of years, and we put on, I don't know, five or six of these pretty decent-sized events, a couple hundred people, a bunch of veterans got jobs. It was my job. my job became fundraising. I'll be honest. That was my job. And it was like phone call fundraising. It was like micro donations. It was, it was a, a slice of humble pie because it's like, if you want to ask people for money on, on every single day, like it's, people don't like that. Some people do. Some people don't.
34:26
And, and I did that for a while and, But then towards the end of like 2018, 2019, I was looking for other things to do. I think that I'm someone that does well when I have something new to chase a little bit. And one area that was just sort of naturally already happening is When you have been a Navy SEAL, it's probably true of like Green Berets or any sort of like select, any group in the military that has a selection that's required to pass in order to join that group. There's all these people that want to be a Navy SEAL that can read all they want about the selection course, what goes into it, what do I need to do to prepare for it, but there's nothing that really beats speaking to an actual Navy SEAL, especially like a relatively current one.
35:11
And so it's just sort of a thing that when you get out of the military, if you have a social media account of any kind, or if you, if you are publicly available in any way, aspiring Navy SEALs are going to come, they're going to come calling and they want to ask you questions and they're super respectful. And so I was getting hit with a lot of questions in virtue of being the CEO of elite meat. I was sort of a public facing Navy SEAL.
35:36
Um, which had its own challenges, but like I had people hitting me up a lot about people as an aspiring Navy SEALs asking me questions and I wanted to centralize it. Uh, and the guy that I was working with at the time, not Jordan, but this other guy, Zach, who was a green Bray, he was helping me with, with elite meat.
35:53
we were like, hey, why don't we create a Patreon channel so it becomes sort of like, if you want access to us on a really personal level, it was very cheap, but it was like, people need to show they're committed to it, like pay five bucks or whatever. But then we have this sectioned off group of people that we can like, train with we can give them i was making podcasts like four or five times a week for these guys i was like pouring my heart and soul out because some of these guys went on to become navy seals it was like really cool um but that that was i only did the operators association uh for like eight or nine months before um one i felt like i had sort of given all the stuff i could give and And also my currency as a Navy SEAL was dwindling because things changed quickly in the teams.
36:37
The training changes. Like what I went through is probably comparable to what you do now, but it's not the same. And YouTube was really becoming my main focus. And so I handed everything to Zach and I said, go forth with Operators Association. And he still does. He's still running it now. And he's more of like the... bring the guys to a location and like put them through literal physical training. And that's like really grueling and people love it. So that's sort of transitioned into that, but the logo for operators association, it's actually me in Afghanistan. It's my silhouette of me in Afghanistan, but the backpack on like about to make entry into some building.
37:10
And so that my legacy is I'm still on the logo, but I I'm not involved with it anymore.
37:15
What would you have told a 19 year old John Allen come and ask advice?
37:19
Oh man, I was lost as a 19 year old.
37:26
So I grew up in Quincy, Mass, which is just south of Boston, Massachusetts.
37:31
very successful family, like maybe not like financially hugely successful, but definitely not hurting. You know, we were like firmly middle-class and, you know, my dad's a successful reporter and my mom's like, she's a, she's a part-time freelance journalist. She's a librarian, but like really well-spoken, really sweet people.
37:48
You've had an unfair advantage in your family with what you do. I do.
37:52
I mean, I have multiple Pulitzer prize winners in my family, which definitely helped. Um, but I, uh, I had the aptitude, I should say, to be successful academically, which was a big thing in my household, being an academic achiever. And I just didn't want to do that. I think I just wanted to carve my own path. But my form of rebellion was literally being a bad student, as if that would get me somewhere. Why?
38:21
in a funny way, were you an asshole?
38:24
No, actually not really.
38:25
We're teachers like, John, you could do better than this.
38:27
Oh, constantly.
38:28
Yeah.
38:28
Yeah. Like, like you're not applying yourself. You're literally just not, you're not doing anything. I was like skipping school. Yeah. Like, yep. And, and I think also my, uh, my sister, Evan, my older sister, she sort of was similar. She skipped school constantly. Like, Cool surprise, Evan, skip school? Yeah, constantly. But Evan, I mean, truly,
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39:22
I would argue that she probably has near genius level intellect, just pure intellect, pure computing brain power. Like when she was like 12, she, without telling anyone, wrote a story about the Salem witch trials, but from the perspective of like a daughter Someone who was being accused fiction like the daughter of like somebody being accused of being a witch But it was like from the perspective of like this child and I think she's like in bed and she's like the 1600s, you know, and it's it was a short story competition She enters it and she fucking wins.
39:55
That's a great approach that story
39:57
It was brilliant. And so she wins. And so she like told us like, hey, so I wrote on her pseudonym and I won this competition. I can't say it's me because it's 18 or older. Oh. Yeah. And so she's 12 and she's like won it.
40:09
But Evan, so she would like skip school all the time, like all the time. And she just like crushed cigarettes and just was like a total like loser. But like she...
40:20
was so so so smart that like teachers couldn't they like couldn't fail her because she could come in and like ace every test she was better than everybody else and so she sort of like was pushed through high school but like i didn't have that i had like that you could probably be a pretty good student but you're you're just sort of skipping school and like the class clown sort of guy um but i uh i my sort of like for my the moment that things really changed for me and i realized that my tendency towards sort of like bad behavior was in part because i didn't really have a goal um was when i was uh i went i i barely graduated high school in the sense that i probably could have failed on truancy alone like i just didn't go but I graduate and I didn't apply to college or I should say I haphazardly like half applied, left some of my applications were incomplete.
41:13
The parents aren't on your ass? They were though. And that's the only reason they even began. I didn't really, I didn't really. But my mom, who is, you know, she's a brilliant writer, and she actually was the writer for our podcast for the first year, she wrote my essay, and she sent it off as me to UMass Amherst.
41:36
And so again, my grades are terrible. Like, it's all bad. My mom writes my essay, and we send it off. And UMass got in touch with me, and they're like, hey, you know, your grades are really not what we're looking for, but my God.
41:50
That essay was just brilliant. She wrote this essay about, it was really short too, which is sort of the brilliance of the essay. It was about my best friend, this guy, Ray. He lived down the street from me in Quincy, and we were like thick as thieves as kids, but like he came from a completely broken household, like in all the worst ways, like drug abuse, like you name it. It's like the worst stuff happens in that house. And he would come to our house and it was like, he was another son. He was a brother. He was beloved. He come on vacations with us, but he always had to go back home.
42:21
And it was always bad for him. It was like, every time you saw him over the years, it's like, he's got a new tattoo and it's like clearly not professionally done. And he's like 14, he's got bruises on him. He's got track marks, you know, things are going bad and worse and worse for him. And, you know, he completely fell into the trap of drug addiction. He had a kid very young. Is this the guy who robbed your house? And then he robbed my house. Yeah, he robbed my house. And I remember we hadn't seen him in a long time. He let his friends in the side door and he stole some stuff, some pretty valuable stuff.
42:55
But like we knew it was him because there was nobody else that would have, like we had seen him that day and he's so down on his luck. And by this point, he's not really in my life anymore. But he left me this voicemail after, it was like maybe the same day. And he wasn't saying that he did it, but he was like apologizing because he knew like I've broken the sacred trust that you've given me. But it's like, we know your life is broken, you know?
43:18
But he ends up, he OD'd and he died when I was 21.
43:22
But, you know, before that, when the essay was written, it was about the last time we saw Ray. And it was actually the day he robbed our house.
43:32
He came to the house and he was like lingering. And it was almost like he was looking at the house, like he just wanted to go inside and like, be like it used to be, but like his buddies in the car was like the music blasting, you know, and it's like smoke coming out the windows. And it's like, he knows he's gotta go with his friend. You know, he's gotta go to the life that he doesn't wanna be in anymore. And my mom described, and this is true, I didn't go out and say bye to him. And I didn't even tell my mom why. I just like stayed in the, I knew he was out there.
44:03
I could see him through the window, but I didn't go. He wanted me to like wave to him and I just wouldn't do it. I didn't go to the door. I just sort of stayed in the house.
44:09
Were you angry at him?
44:11
I had never expressed my feelings to anybody about it. It was like, I had drifted so far from him and I wasn't mad. I just like, I knew like, are no longer compatible like our lives have so diverged and so my mom wrote the essay about him and it was just this contrast of like what happens from when your life is broken from the start and it was just really good and so i got into college largely on the strength of that essay um and i proceeded to it all away uh i all just some stupid stuff like i was in this There are these dorms at UMass Amherst.
44:47
There's all these sections of the campus. It's a huge undergraduate school. There's like 30,000 students or something.
44:53
There's like five or six sections that are the housing areas. And one of them is called Southwest. And Southwest is like the place to be if you want to like party.
45:03
We all had those quads.
45:04
That's the one. And the reason for that was, you know, it sort of had that reputation for a bunch of reasons. But a big one is it had these, I think, five like mini skyscrapers that were like 26 story sort of narrow buildings that were just packed with students and the buildings were all on top of each other and like this is like western massachusetts where there's like really nothing around this is like this is it and it's it had a reputation for that's where you go to just be a knucklehead right and i had to be in southwest you know and i was so i got into one of the towers uh and i uh I had like 30 some odd violations my first semester.
45:41
These are stupid stuff. What are you doing? My roommate, Jake, who I didn't know. He was awesome. Awesome dude.
45:49
He's like, hey, bro, I'm going home for the weekend, and I was going to stay at the school. This is an example of things I would do. I'm going to go home for the weekend. My mom's sending me a reading pillow, one of those big, heavy pillows you sit up against. Oh, okay. Like a big pillow. He's like, would you mind just like, because they can't leave it in the box. You got to get it and bring it up. And I was like, of course.
46:12
Of course I'll get your pillow.
46:14
And so he goes home for the weekend and his pillow arrives and I bring it up and I shred it to pieces.
46:21
What's the matter with you? Through the fluff all over the hallway.
46:26
It's a pillow. No reason for it.
46:29
No reason.
46:29
No. And so like there's that one time we would go to the cafeteria, the amazing dining halls at UMass. These are huge dining halls. And they had like, you know, soda machines, like, you know, and there's like this mixer. that like for orange juice, they don't put like tons of orange juice into it. It's like, there's like the syrup and the water that mixes and you make the juice. And I was like, dude, let's get some of that syrup and we can like mix it with water up in our rooms and we can have juice. And I realized when I got up there to my, my little room up in the 26th floor that like, there's really no good way to do this.
47:05
You need like, you know, industrial tools to mix the syrup. And so naturally I lopped the top off. Where'd you get the syrup from?
47:13
we just stole it she stole it and we like we just like you know dumped it out in the hallway and it was so sticky that they couldn't really clean it up and they'd like professionally clean the carpets we i had like 20 some odd noise violations like i weed was constantly coming out of the door constantly getting read up for that uh you wanted to get in trouble i i think there was an element of like i just i really just didn't care and then it all came to a head when at the end of the semester mind you also this whole time i'm telling my folks things are going great things are going real i'm telling you what i'm really taking a leg into college things are really good i'm getting pretty good grades you know i'm not i'm not i'm literally not going to class getting pretty good grades things are going pretty good like it's going horrible they don't know that And so at the end of the semester, our football team, who admittedly no one really cared about, like there are some guys that have gone pro, like it's a
48:11
big deal, but like the school's just not really a football school.
48:15
Like, yeah, it's like, yeah, cool, we have a football team.
48:18
Well, we like find out, because no one was paying attention to this team, that they had made it to the finals. They were like, they were going to play Appalachia State for the final. Like, whoa, right? We find this out. Wow, I didn't even know. And they're not even home. They're like away. And they played the game on like the UMass TV, because this is like pre-streaming. This is 2006, 2007. And so I remember like, for whatever reason, it was like everyone, especially in Southwest, was like, great, we're just going to watch this game. Like...
48:48
Let's go UMass. I hope we win this game. And they lost. Fair and square. Good game. They lost. And for whatever reason, it was like there was just this energy in Southwest. People were like, hmm, this doesn't sit right with me. We should have lost this game that I didn't care about until six hours ago. It wouldn't be a good idea.
49:09
I look out the window of my little, these stupid little windows that barely open. And there was just people starting to like mass up in the center of these five high rises. There's like this little pyramid you can sit on. It's like, you know, the size of a football field. And just people were just like coming out of their rooms and just sort of milling about. All the lights are on. They have these, they have riot lights at UMass because riots are a thing there. And that the riot lights go on well before anyone's doing anything. But what it did is it was like, oh shit, are we rioting? Is this a riot? Is this a riot? And people are like, what's going on here?
49:40
And then suddenly this kid, he climbs up on the awning of our cafeteria that overlooked this area where we were amassing. And he yells, put this on YouTube. And he runs and leaps off the roof. Expecting, I guess, people to be like, we'll catch you. No one caught him.
50:00
It's Western Mass. We're not catching you. Blasting the ground.
50:03
Clearly breaks one of his legs. And the crowd just goes, rah!
50:07
And it was madness. It literally was like that kicked off like a storm of just chaos. People are picking up rocks, throwing them through windows. I'm completely sober, completely sober. Again, only recently invested in this game that I didn't even know was a thing. And I was fully committed to that riot. Oh, was I a part of that riot? And like the riot police show up, like the mounted riot police, the hundreds of these.
50:34
Did you vandalize property?
50:36
Well, I could have. The statute of limitations has expired. Oh, yeah. Fire and rocks all over the place. Just complete debauchery. Sober.
50:45
Like, 100% sober. So the cops covered in hats and bats?
50:49
So bad. And they brought their rubber pellets.
50:51
Oh, no!
50:53
very quickly the crowd once the the riot police showed up like the crowd sort of began to to dwindle and there was a hardcore group of like maybe 50 people and i was one of them i had i had taken my shirt off and wrapped it around my head because of the cs gas in the air and i had been shot like by the the pellet gun so many times and like i just stayed out there like i couldn't go in i was like so enamored with like evading the police like running all over the place and like everybody else is going in i was just still firing rocks all over the place and just staying out. And I finally, I go in my room.
51:25
I could tell if I stayed out any longer, I'm gonna get arrested. And I go in my dorm, I run up to my room, I'm like, man, that was fucking awesome. And my pockets. You were fired up. Oh, dude, I was stoked.
51:35
You're like, what was I thinking?
51:36
No, this was great. And in my pockets, I had pellets in my pockets because I've been shot so many times by these rubber bullets that just by probability alone, they had peppered the top of my pocket and like landed in my pockets. I have like pellets in my pocket. Welts on your skinny bear chest. Dude, all over me, covered in welts. And I'm just like, awesome. Go to bed. No problem. Next day I wake up and it's like, there's a haze over the campus. Like there's just fog had rolled in and like, it looked like just a war zone. There's broken glass everywhere. And I'm like, damn and like that day we started to hear like hey uh they have uh this website the umass police they were running a video and pictures of everybody out there and there's this anonymous page where it's just pictures of the riot and anybody can identify anybody in these pictures and like that day day like 12 hours later people were being escorted off the campus and expelled I was fucking hated on my floor.
52:33
And I immediately found- But you were already hated.
52:36
Already hated. So many noise violates.
52:38
People were like, who the fuck is this freshman idiot who's just causing problems? People were looking for you like, I bet John was in there.
52:44
And I found, I think it was like two pictures that were like, that's me. And so amazingly, no one named me, at least not yet.
52:52
But it was right at the end of the semester and grades come out and I had a 1.0, 1.6, a little lower than my folks expected. And I also, due to the number of violations, they had this rule that even if your violations are minor, I think it's like 20 in a semester, you are banned from being in the dorms. You can still attend the school, but you must live off campus. And so all at once, my parents were told, well, your son has a 1.016 GPA. So he's been put on academic probation. If he can even continue here and he must live off campus, which is like, imagine making the decision to send your kid off campus.
53:28
Who's just been doing all this. And so my dad comes up to meet with the Dean thinking he's going to like talk it through with him and it's going to be fine. And he realizes pretty quickly that the Dean's like, No, you're gonna live off campus and you're gonna get your grades up or you're gonna leave the school And so we had this like really stark meeting and my dad's like furious.
53:46
Does your dad know how hard it is to get thrown off at Amherst? You have to beg to get off of there.
53:50
He did say like this is unbelievable. Yeah, and I We left and we're sitting on this bench and I'm like fuck like I now I realize this is pretty bad and I'm like dad I Also, you still have damage here. There's a pretty big riot here. And I explained that like, I'm in these pictures. It's a matter of time before I get named and expelled.
54:11
And he's like, you have to withdraw from school and come home. And so amazingly, I withdraw to avoid expulsion, basically.
54:21
And I go home and I'm literally, I move into my mom's basement. My parents were split. I moved my mom's basement. And I actually remember, and this is the change that happened, the 19-year-old me.
54:32
I'm in my mom's basement and I was so fucking mad at my parents. At your parents? Yeah. Like, how dare you? I had my friends at school. You took this from me?
54:44
But quickly, I don't know what it was. There wasn't like a specific moment, but like it just set in like, dude, No one fucking cares about you. Like you're a dude who had every opportunity. This is entirely architected by you. And my mom, to her credit, was just ruthless when I came home. I come home, there's zero sympathy. She's a very sweet woman. She's like a librarian. She's like, you're going to pay rent. And if you don't, you can leave. If you want to go to college, great. You can figure that out. All on you.
55:14
You want to be an adult? You want to fuck around? Like, go for it.
55:17
I had this conversation with my mom.
55:18
Brutal. Brutal. She'd get the note card of all the money I owed her. Oh, my God. We had a whiteboard. Yep. Down to how much toothpaste I used. But it was really important for me. Yes. And it cleaned my act up real quick. And I set my sights on, first, I'm going to go to school locally, get my grades up. And I ultimately went back to UMass Amherst. And I did graduate. But it also... as i began reshaping my life getting a job getting good grades being diligent getting high and playing skate and ranking in the world doing all those things it's when i fell in love with like the idea of being a seal in part because it was like it's this one place that i had found where truly just about anyone can try out you need to be an american citizen there's some medical requirements but for the most part it's like If you're in decent enough shape, you're a citizen, you can go try out.
56:07
Even now, women can do it too.
56:09
But only a handful of people get through. And I met some SEALs that were like, a lot of guys that become SEALs often have, call it resumes, that look like mine. Where it's like, you fucked everything up. Hold on, is this art camp day?
56:24
Is this that you went to art camp and talked to the guys in the shed?
56:26
Yeah, dude, that is the art camp thing.
56:28
Well, tell us what happened there. You said there were some CIA guys there. Oh, yeah, dude. What was going on in that hut?
56:32
So, yeah, actually, so I got my grades up with school, so I kind of got back on my mom's good terms.
56:38
She stopped squinting at you?
56:40
A little bit, because it was like I got a job. I was scanning IDs at the YMCA at the gym at like the 5 a.m. crew. I didn't have a car, so I would get up at like 3, and I would bike on my little 10-speed to the YMCA three miles away. I looked at it as like, I want this to suck for myself. I want to like earn this. And so I'm biking at 3 in the morning, and I do my little scanner job, and then after my – like three hours of work. I would hop on the train, go to UMass Boston, which was very easy to get into at the time.
57:12
And I was getting my act together, right? And so after three semesters of good behavior, of paying rent, of being like a high-functioning kid, I began thinking about what I was gonna do after college. Because now it's like, okay, I can probably graduate.
57:27
I'm gonna graduate from college, right? Now, hold on. When you were being a good kid, was it going against your grain or were you really turning it around inside your brain?
57:36
No, I felt good about it.
57:37
Because sometimes you have to act the part before it sticks.
57:40
I was embarrassed. Yes. And I don't even know. I don't know. It was like I came home and I was mad from being brought home from UMass Amherst. But then something quickly clicked that this was my fault. and i suddenly sort of saw myself for the first time as like a really ignorant entitled little brat who had gotten away with acting like an idiot for a long time and like literally my mother wrote my essay that got me into that school and my parents paid for it like what are you doing it was like embarrassing and so i think i wanted to not be a up anymore like Genuinely.
58:14
And so as I'm turning my act around, and not even, like within like several months, I'm like back on track, I'm like training, like I'm working out, I'm like doing stuff that like shows I'm being responsible. And you're studying for SEALs at this point, right?
58:29
not really i was not really i and that's it's sort of all happened at once i'm like maybe a sophomore slash maybe i was a junior at this point but it was like no i was a sophomore in college i'm still at umass boston so i'm still living at home but i'm like okay like i've sort of turned my act around a little bit i i was thinking about what was next you know like i knew i would graduate i was studying philosophy really with not a clear shot for what i would do i just loved philosophy i love thought experiments um and uh i didn't really have a plan but a lot of my buddies when i graduated high school joined the marines and they went off to iraq and afghanistan and you know i just i looked at that as incredibly honorable not so much literally what they did but just in a time of war to volunteer is a big move you know one it doesn't matter what you think about it it's a big move and i i always sort of I would find myself wishing that that had been what
59:23
I did in part because of my fuck up and all that.
59:26
And so service was on my mind. I wanted to serve. I was thinking about it. And I remember talking to my mom who at this point, she softened the way she treats me. She's back to being very, very gentle, Jesse, the librarian. And I was like, you know, I'm thinking about, uh, you know, the military, like after, after college, I not, I don't know how or what exactly, but I'm thinking about it.
59:47
And she's like, oh, you, you should talk to, They're sort of family friends. More specifically, my mom's best friend is this woman, Susan. And Susan is like, she's a close family friend. I've known her for years. And I knew she had brothers who are military. I didn't really know what they did. And my mom's like, oh yeah, you should go talk to her. And I'm like, oh yeah.
60:09
I was like, what do they do? What do they do in the military?
60:12
You didn't absorb at this point that SEALs don't really talk too much about what they do. That didn't stick yet.
60:16
She goes, actually, you know what?
60:19
They're retiring. They were Navy SEALs.
60:23
And I'm like, what? The dudes I've seen at barbecues that are just like, hey, what's going on guys? Just nonchalant.
60:30
It didn't compute. And it was so amazing. And I'm like, oh my, I've talked to them. I know them, but now I've seen them all over again.
60:38
And my mom's like, actually, you know, John, they were a part of SEAL Team 6. They were on 6? They were on 6 when 6 was, like, doing everything. Like, they were on Team 6, and I don't want to totally give up who it is, but, like, basically, they were, like, leading stuff on Team 6 when the war on terror began. So, like, okay, special operations are going to go do some of the gnarliest combat that's ever happened.
61:08
They're the ones that are like leading it and therefore it like very hardcore stuff. And so I began like looking at what it took to be a Navy seal and it's like so cool. They're just cool. Had really no sense of what it would really entail. He calls me, he's like, you're gonna come up to the camp up in New Hampshire.
61:27
Military camp or combat?
61:28
No, and I'm like, okay, all right, I will. And this is the day's pre-GPS. It's like MapQuest directions. And so I tell my mom, I guess I'm going to some camp. And she's like, oh, it's Susan's art camp. I'm like, what? You're at the art camp? He made it seem like this was not an art camp. This is hardcore. I don't know what he's doing. He talked about shooting guns and stuff. I'm pretty sure this is not art camp. And she's like, no, no, it's definitely her art camp. I'm like, this is weird. So I put it in MapQuest to go to the camp out in New Hampshire.
62:01
And I'm driving there, following these directions. And it's bringing me out into the sticks. And then I get to the camp and it looks like it's a beautiful kids camp. It's a sunny day. There's literally kids running around, like playing with bubbles. And there's like, it's a music camp and it's beautiful.
62:17
Oh, it's nice.
62:18
And I go in there and I'm like, I find Susan. Did you show up in fatigues? What did you do? I was like in just gym clothes. I didn't even know what I'm going to do. And I just see this like gravel road that like goes up and over a hill off into the forest. Like I don't even know what's up there. And I'm like, okay. And so I drive my car around and I'm just like going up this rise and like the road is just like going on and on. It's like deeper into the forest. And it eventually comes to this clearing and there's this like ramshackle plywood hut that's just sitting like conspicuously in the middle of this clearing.
62:50
And nobody would look at that and think a professional built it. It's like children built this hut. But it's huge. It's like this pretty big space.
62:58
And I parked my car and I get out and I don't even know what we're doing here. I've been told to come to the camp. That's it.
63:07
And immediately when I get out of the car, I hear the sound of men bullshitting with each other in the hut. These are not teenagers. These are fucking men that are bullshitting. They're laughing. It's a lot of them.
63:21
And I'm like, fuck, I have to go in there. Like I'm so intimidated. And so I'm like, all right, you gotta go. I've driven out here. You gotta go in. And so I hear him talking. This is the first test right here. In a way, I kind of felt like that's what it was. And so I walk over and it's gravel. Every step is so loud.
63:39
There's no soundproofing here. The seals heard you parked the car. Dude, yeah, of course. They knew this was happening. And I walk over and I get to the door, which are these crappy hinges on it. And you can't see through it. And it's outside the door and they just go silent inside.
63:54
And I'd slowly open the heart. It's like...
63:57
And there's no furniture inside. It's just like a vacant space with all these upturned buckets that like 10 or 12 dudes who were like some of the most physically intimidating people I've ever seen. Who, by the way, a lot of them were active duty team six guys that are just sitting on these buckets. They're all like chewing tobacco and they all turn and look at me. And one of them goes, who the fuck are you? That's perfect. And I was like, oh, hi, I'm Jonathan. I'm Jesse's son. And then Dave's like, I don't know who the fuck you are. Like get in here. And then they were like really cool.
64:28
uh but dude they they go up to this camp it's it's sort of a not well kept secret but like they'll bring guys up there even though they're retired and they'll like take guys through some shooting training but it's sort of like crazy shit they do because it's not really sanctioned they just like go out there but they'll bring guys that are like like active duty team six guys they go out and train out there and so i had the chance to like chat with these guys some of them are about to go like deploy to parts of the world that like no one knows we're in and On the one hand, it was like, holy shit, this is like a different species.
65:00
I'm not around normal people right now. Like it was just, it's hard to even put into words how impressed I was with these people. Sure.
65:09
But the other part of it that it was like when I had my moment of, I now know I can't not at least try. I had that moment when I sat down with this guy who's a SEAL. He's an older SEAL. He was in Beirut when it was bombed, the famous Marine barracks bombing. He was out there. So he's written a couple of books and he's the guy that told me, he's like, you know, buds buds it sucks you know buds at basic underwater demolition seal training it's like seal boot camp it's it's brutal you know it's all those things but he's like i'm telling you like it's amazing like he described it as the best time you never want to have again and he's like the people that make it it isn't that they're they're battling oh boy should i quit today or not because you can quit at any time you know He's like, the people that really want to go, a lot of times they don't really have an alternative.
65:59
It's sort of like they fucked their lives up or they had opportunities they squandered or whatever it is, but they have something to prove, you know? And he's like, a lot of the people that make it, they refer to it as a calling. That it's not like today I've decided to be a SEAL and I hope I don't quit when I'm in training. It's like, no, I have to go try.
66:17
I have to do it.
66:18
I have to see if I stack up against this. And as soon as it was put to me that way, I realized that this is the most incredible thing I've ever been around. And...
66:28
I then went out and like shot AK-47s with them. And like, they're telling me their stories about buds and like deployment. And it's just so surreal. And I came back from that trip and it was like 100% I'm going to go become an AV seal. Or more specifically, I wasn't that sure of it. It was more like, I for sure am going to try. And it's going to be, if I don't make it, I'm okay with that. I'm okay with like, didn't make the cut, but I'm not going to go and see what happens. You knew you were going to make it though. You just, you feel like you're going to make it.
66:58
I could do this.
66:59
I think that's true. And I would even say like when I went out to Coronado for training, and this is not, this is pretty much universal for the guys that make it.
67:08
I never had a moment where I was like, oh boy, am I going to quit today? I didn't.
67:13
Did I have moments of pathetic weakness of just embarrassing failure? Of course. Like there are moments of like horrible failure. Like I have like totally humiliating moments in my training.
67:26
But I never, ever, ever was like, hmm.
67:30
I might quit, better talk myself out of it. Never came close, never. And there are moments in buds that are so fucking miserable. Like we would do these like log carries where you're, and it sounds so like, oh, it was just a heavy log, right? No, no. You're barely sleeping. You're in the freezing ocean like all the time. And then you would do, I think, what do we call them? The elephant walk or something where you and your, what do they call it? Your boat crew, who are similarly sized people, so long as the class is big enough to afford you that, you hold this telephone pole that's not even that heavy.
68:04
It's a heavy pole, but it's not as heavy as a true telephone pole. But you hold it in your front like this. You can't hold it up like this.
68:11
You literally can't hold it down here because you'll drop it. And you're walking on really soft sand in the heat. And you're all walking in line. And you're just walking for a mile this way. And then you go up and down the berm a few times, then a mile back. You are imagine holding any weight with your biceps.
68:29
just basically nonstop. It becomes, if you haven't done this, the pain you feel in your biceps, if you just hold it long enough is excruciating. And there are instructors that walk with you for each of these logs that are just like waiting because it's considered at times, they'll consider it quitting. If you drop the log and they're like, you bitched out of this, it's called a nonverbal DOR, you quit.
68:53
See ya. And so you basically have to suffer constantly it's like this out of body level of suffering but you do it like all the time in butts and you slowly come to realize that it's always horrible But you can do it if you have like the constitution and the guys that suck around. The most random group of guys. It was like a guy who had never swam before. He literally hadn't swam. And he's like, yeah, I'm trying out for buds. Dude, this is a huge swimming component. We'll figure it out.
69:24
And he did. We had a guy who he went to boot camp. This guy's incredible, by the way. He walked on to the...
69:32
Indiana's football team, like as a 23-year-old or something, like it was unheard of after the teams. He went to boot camp, didn't know what a Navy SEAL was. In today's age, this doesn't happen. Doesn't know what a SEAL was, but they do offer to all the people who are in Naval boot camp, hey, if anybody wants to go take a physical screening test for the SEAL teams, you're welcome to do it today because the Buds guys are doing that. You can go do it. Nobody does it. He was like, all right, I'll go do that. Has no idea what he's getting himself into. Passes the PST. Goes to Buds.
70:02
Never fails a single test. Becomes a Navy SEAL. And he's amazing. I think he went to Dev Crew, Team 6, for a while. I don't even know if he did. He gets out. He's turned into the Incredible Hulk, too. He put on so much muscle. All natural. He's huge. And he's like, I'm going to go play football. Never played football in his life. Walks on to the Indiana team. But it's just like...
70:21
You said out of body, that's interesting. I think a lot of the guys who make it learn disassociation, almost like meditation, like, that's my body, I'm not really there, just let it happen.
70:32
Definitely.
70:32
Are there guys who just sail through buds?
70:35
Yeah, and there's actually a name for it.
70:37
It's first time every time. There's other guys that never fail a test, and it's a real thing. There's a buddy of mine.
70:44
He got this thing called BGE or VGE. It's a stomach virus, and he got it right at the end.
70:52
In SEAL training in BUDS, it's six months long. And like the really brutal physical part of it is like the first two months. It's called first phase. And it's just like, it's like the log carries. It's like a million pushups and that kind of thing.
71:06
But Hell Week is a component of that. And it's a week of really no sleep and constant training. It's five and a half days. You sleep for a total of four hours broken up into naps. And I can tell you, there isn't anybody who wants to take those naps. They're the worst part of Hell Week in some ways. So you're awake, training nonstop. You're in the ocean. It's miserable. So it's going to be hard no matter what. He got VGE, BG, whatever the stomach virus. Montezuma's Revenge is what it's colloquially known as. Oh, no. You're vomiting and you're pooping the whole time.
71:38
And he got it like the week of leading into Hell Week. So the last few days, a brutal first phase before like, and next week is Hell Week. He can't keep a meal down. We're all withering away. We would finish up the day at like 10 o'clock or 11 o'clock and we'd eat like gallons of ice cream and Cheez-Its and Oreo. Nothing was enough. You're burning so many calories. The instructors were like, just eat. Eat constantly, right? And it wasn't enough. You're still losing all this weight. He couldn't keep anything down.
72:08
Never complained. Not once. Goes into Hell Week. He's like dying during Hell Week.
72:15
He'd be running with the boat on your head as we do throughout the whole time. And he's like vomiting. He's like pooping himself the whole time. And Hell Week...
72:25
You're up against how long it is, is the really, that's the hard part of it. It's like any, the closest thing I can think of is like, if you've ever gone for a run, just any run that is uncomfortable for you to do, it doesn't even matter what it is. Maybe if you, it's a mile, maybe it's 10 miles, whatever, but some distance where you start to think, man, this is gonna take a while and every second sucks.
72:47
So Hell Week is sort of that feeling and it never really goes away. And it's so, so long and it's so physically demanding that like every second really feels like an eternity. And then what makes it even worse is invariably you sort of lose your mind. You start to hallucinate really badly at about like the 72 hour mark, you start to hallucinate.
73:09
But like you're acutely aware of how bad it is and how slow it is, but you're not able to form coherent thoughts. And so everybody's struggling and is like dying from BG.
73:21
And like he's being talked to by the medics because if you don't quit, like they really won't pull you out of training. They will let you keep going pretty much to the brink of death if you want to keep going. Because I mean, we're training for the big leagues, you know?
73:34
And this dude just like...
73:36
never quit, never complained, had probably the worst week of anyone's life.
73:42
And then afterwards, like he just never talked about it, just went, never failed to test. It's like, there are people that just have this capacity to just do things that are just unbelievable. And you see it a lot in SEAL training.
73:54
I was not like that. I was definitely more of the complaining type, more of like the pitching type. But I think that it's funny, my nickname was Shakespeare at some point in training because I just was always telling stories. And I think that one of the things that I brought to the table, like there was this area on the Bud's compound that was sort of sacred, that even the instructors, they gave you the space. It was known as the pit. And all it is, is like this little space behind the first phase barracks where all the students who are in first phase go and the fence that sort of is up against the back end of the beach.
74:27
So it's like this literally three or four foot section of space that runs like, you know, a hundred yards or whatever. And it's, it's your insight of the instructors, but you're sort of obscured by a fence in the barracks. And the instructors even tell you like, when you're in there, we'll leave you alone. And when we're in there and it's like for five minutes at a stretch or whatever, I would always just like be telling stories, like bullshitting and like fucking around with people.
74:56
And honestly, like what you find in shared suffering is like everyone sort of has a role to play to like, keep the vibe from getting overtly negative and i think one of the things that i found is like i was able to just tell people stories and that definitely was the thing that people were drew to they they were drawn to me because it was a distraction you know um but other guys like the ability to suffer well was incredible by some of these guys let's take a quick break because that's a good segue we'll come back and talk shop talk stories let's do it back in a minute Got the flannel.
75:30
Let's go.
75:33
You like it? That's a good look, dude. Is it? Yeah, that's a pretty good look. I myself fancy that.
75:38
Are you sick of it?
75:40
A little bit.
75:41
It's sort of like now the thing that is so synonymous with what I do that it's sort of like, all right. But like when I'm not Mr. Ballin, I'm wearing nothing like this. No, of course not. No.
75:55
Yeah, dude.
75:58
This is from Reddit from the fans. Love it. Let's hear it.
76:02
The old format was better. He's phoning it in. Quality fell off.
76:07
Sellout with the big bucks.
76:10
Those are about me.
76:12
and Varitasium and Linus Tech Tips and Mr. Ballin and everybody oh wow same same across the board you thought I was talking about you I did and I fully assumed that was about me no it still gets to me a little bit does it get to you
76:28
It does.
76:31
And you know what? I think that part of the reason that gets to me is I know there's some element of truth to it. And it doesn't mean that, oh boy, I'm now covering it. It's more like there is, here's the way I view it.
76:46
You go viral or whatever. You have your spark on the internet, let's say.
76:53
What I think people don't necessarily know, although it's sort of logical, is that there's really kind of like two outcomes.
77:01
You go viral and you either find a way to sustain, replicate, whatever, do it again, make a name for yourself, whatever, or you don't. It fades off. That's sort of it. It's sort of binary.
77:15
you don't hear about the people that faded off. And I can tell you just from, I'm not gonna say who they are, because it's totally throwing shade, but like, When I went viral on TikTok, when there was no strange, dark, mysterious, it was like I had a video that in, think how many videos probably went viral today that in a week, no one will remember. Like I had my moment, there were these other creators that went viral at like the same time, just by happenstance, completely unrelated to me. But there was this cool, like almost like this is my graduating class sort of feel to it that like immediately I was in touch on TikTok with like all these other creators that were sort of comparable in speed of growth and like sort of their accounts, whatever.
78:01
And a big part of it is we just would swap anything we knew because it helped both of us and all of them, all of them.
78:11
just completely fell off. Not like, oh, you fell off. I don't mean it that way. I mean, there was no sustainability long-term. There was too much like they had a thing that worked once and they just freaking drove it into the ground. And I get it. Like in some ways, like you could make the case that's exactly what I have done. I have a thing, a shtick that I do.
78:32
But what people don't know or what people don't, let's say, appreciate on the audience side is like, This can't be a long-term thing unless you're willing and able to make changes to make it a business on some level.
78:47
It's a total pipe dream to think that it's possible to topic find, research, write, shoot, edit, Non-stop, because by the way, I remember I was making five videos a week.
79:03
I remember that. I was like, how does this guy do it?
79:05
Oh, it was horrible. It was horrible. Sounds horrible. I took a week off when I reached a point.
79:11
You didn't panic taking a week off?
79:12
Oh, no. It was like a- It's awful.
79:16
the purest form of writer's block. I could even possibly imagine I was trying to write this story about these, these two brothers in Maryland who were hoarders. And basically the story is that ultimately one of them dies amongst the mess and goes unnoticed by the other. And they're like, the Collier brothers, the Collier brothers, the Collier brothers. You can tell it if you want, you know, I don't know the details that well. And I never actually, I think I did tell it eventually, but like, um, Basically, it's these two brothers and they're total hoarders. And it's just this grotesque story about hoarding and death.
79:49
They're a maze of newspapers or other parts. Yes. And so I could not come up with how to tell the story. I couldn't do it. It was like, what is happening? I have the research, I've done the research, I'm ready to do, I couldn't do it. And I remember I started at like nine or 10 in the morning to like start the process of this 20 some odd hour process to make this video. And it was like, the sun was starting to go down that night and I hadn't done anything. It's the first time in months I've ever like missed this much time.
80:21
And I was like, holy shit, I can't do this. And I went out and I talked to Amanda, my wife, and I'm like, dude, I can't write this episode. And she's like, dude, take a day off. Yeah. And so I took a day, which turned into a full week of time off, which again, I have been creating effectively nonstop for like five, six months. And it's taken a big toll on me to a week off.
80:46
It isn't that I was met with a deluge of negativity, not at all.
80:52
But this is the part that I'm coming back to this whole idea that like people don't necessarily see this.
80:59
The audience knows that you have your platform because the audience is watching. They have the power to give you the platform or take it away.
81:09
If you don't give them, and I'm saying they, not specific individuals, but as a collective, if you're not giving them what they want, they will leave you. It is not a friendship. It's not like, oh, this is my family member.
81:23
It is a commodity that they want and you're giving it to them.
81:28
Is it so easy for them to just find someone else?
81:30
And it's immediately available.
81:32
It's right there.
81:33
And I remember coming back from that week and seeing for the first time comments about me not caring. Wow.
81:42
And it's like, you know, I get it. I can sort of see like off the cuff. And there's at this point, you know, millions of people, I get it. Like there's going to be people that have their opinions, but it like really hurt. You know, and you're not supposed, I'm like, I'm like an adult. I have kids. I'm an adult. As I came into this, I was a Navy SEAL. Like I should be able to handle this stuff, but it was really hard. And it always stuck with me from that point forward. that I love, I've met so many amazing fans. I know you probably have too. Like there are some really incredible people out there that do comprise, in some ways, the majority of the audience.
82:16
But make no mistake, if you're the one that is sort of the key man, if you will, for the show, you're on a hamster wheel that you must maintain. If you don't, the audience just goes away.
82:29
It's not the same with traditional media, not that I've ever had traditional media experience, but in today's day and age with digital media, If you want a career in this space, you better find a way to do this over and over and over and over and never fucking stop ever or else it goes away. And once you reach a certain scale, when you have like a staff and you have expectations and you have people that depend on you and you're like a thing now, As the creator, like you need to make decisions that are designed to keep this thing going.
83:02
And sometimes what that means is I may need to bring in other people to help me do this because I can't fucking do this nonstop for the rest of the next 10 years or something. And so when you see creators, Me, you, you named a few other people.
83:19
Part of the reason they're still relevant is they've made decisions that may degrade in terms of quality compared to the first episode they ever did. And also people have a lot of emotion attached to those first few episodes. They were there with you, you know?
83:31
They were there. They don't want to see a change.
83:33
They don't want to see a change. And even if the changes are good, the change itself represents what's going on here.
83:38
But like you don't get really much...
83:41
sympathy is the wrong word. You don't get much slack if you start altering what you do at the same time that you've sort of perceived as growing and being successful. And so the sellout thing, I think that it doesn't like hurt, but it's just purely a misunderstanding of how this really works. I could have just as easily become obscure by not making changes and running myself into the ground and stopping making content. And then guess what? There wouldn't be any commentary about Mr. Bolland because Mr. Bolland wouldn't exist.
84:15
It would be, oh, that was that thing that happened that one time for like a month on TikTok a while ago. It wouldn't matter to you.
84:20
It wouldn't.
84:21
It's the fact that you're still hearing about the Y files and AJ and John and the Mr. Is because they've done something that allows them to maintain a sort of near impossible to maintain thing, which is a never ending supply of content because that's your career. It exists so long as you make content. I don't know what happens when you stop, but I'm pretty sure your career as a content creator changes pretty dramatically. It does.
84:45
People tell me, you know, you're a slave to the algorithm. And I tell them, yeah, that's how we make our livelihoods here. And if you take too much time off, you will be punished. The audience will punish you. The algorithm will punish you. Now, new things show up in your feed. Sometimes I don't even see my own episodes on my feed. Same. Oh, because I didn't post last week. Because why? I'm not getting impressions. Same.
85:08
So I went through phases of drinking too much, not sleeping, showering in the office.
85:13
It's like, it's not glamorous.
85:16
You know, it's so, man, is that true?
85:20
Dude, in 2023, I had like the most banner year on paper that you could have. Like even now looking back, it's astounding.
85:35
I'd post a YouTube video and it's like fucking a dillion views. I remember those. A million in a day, a million in a day. Dude, it was like, oh, whatever. I had the podcast that we started and we had the fastest from conception of podcast or inception of podcast to signing of a mega deal.
86:00
We did it the fastest against anybody else at that deal size. It was like nine months from, we're gonna do a podcast. Hey, we'll sign you to a fucking enormous contract for three years.
86:11
Was that the Amazon deal?
86:13
So only nine months to get that? It was like, I wanna say it was 10 months, 10 months. And we're talking like tens of millions of dollars.
86:21
It was like, you know, it was like 62, $62 million, $62 million. That's what it was. In fact, I don't even know why that's so secret. Cause my, the deal was serious public too. Right. So it's $62 million. And I said in 2023, my YouTube channel, which by the way, wasn't even licensed. So I licensed my podcast and we were crushing. It was doing crazy, crazy downloads, but we, for 62 million for the podcast and I have a YouTube channel that's doing like $10 million a year.
86:54
And so in 23, the reason I say all that, I am making so much fucking money that I literally didn't even know what to do. It wasn't like, I'm gonna go buy a bunch of shit. It was like, I don't even know who to talk to. Even my financial people, I don't even know if they know what to do. Like there's money coming in that's so high I'm uncomfortable even talking about it. You don't have a support structure for this.
87:20
There's a point where my mom is my financial advisor until she's like, I don't understand anymore. It's fun, but it's also very stressful.
87:30
But at the end of 23, I was, if not a alcoholic by some sort of definition, I was close.
87:40
Because I, oh my God, it's like, I'd become sort of financially successful and right away there were like these really difficult exploitations that began happening in my life.
87:56
I actually, you know, I began doing a renovation. I was telling you about this before, you know, and the contractor basically took a ton of money for me, a shit ton of money, like half a million dollars from me. And, uh, I was stupid enough to give it, but it was like totally being gaslit into giving money. And it's like, they knew that I had money. It was a thing. And they're like taking the money and not doing the renovations and just extorting me for more money. Cause they've gutted my house already. And like, then I had people that were coming into work for me, uh, that are not with me now.
88:28
So this is nobody now, but like that were just hugely exploitative and And so at the end of 23, I am like, in the eyes of being, in terms of being a creator, I got it all. I got fucking everything you could ever ask for. And I would work myself to death. And then at whatever time I was done working, I would just drink. I would just drink, dude. And it wasn't even for fun. And it wasn't even as an outlet. It was almost habitual. It was just fucking drinking.
88:59
Take it away. I don't want to think about it. It's the only way to sleep.
89:03
And then, and so by the end of 23, I was, so like right now I'm like in the 170s. I weigh about 170 and I'm like really on top of my like health and I'm sober. But I was like, I remember looking at the scale and it was like 199. And I'm like, not exercising at all. There's no part of this that is like good body comp. I'm like out of shape. And I had this ponytail. I had grown my fucking hair out like really bad. And I don't even know why I was doing it. It was sort of like the shtick that began when Mr. Ballin happened.
89:34
I wasn't really cutting my hair. And I just never did it. And I had this like ponytail. And I'm like...
89:39
I remember the long hair.
89:41
I was like just bloated looking. And if you look at the videos from 2023 and like early 23, late 22, a lot of the videos, I'm hung over. A lot of the videos.
89:52
And you can totally tell it. I mean, you can. Oh, dude, I'm red face. I have a whole year where it's like, you don't even see the white in my eyes.
89:59
Skinny?
90:01
So you don't feel like a megastar at this point?
90:04
No. Not at all. And I think that I also realized that it's like a permanent shift in terms of how you're viewed by people around you who really know you because now I think that I offered a lot to the world before this, but now there's like a financial opportunity. There's more than that. There's like an opportunity for people that you represent that they can't really get elsewhere.
90:31
And I was sort of realizing that I had very close friends that were from the teams that were trying to get money out of me. And it's like, what the fuck? It's like my circle just... shrunk and I was like so physically just like I felt so gross about myself and I'm like just drinking all the time and then I shifted from well here I'm gonna stop boozing as much and I'm gonna just like eat edible marijuana which is like oh no big deal. And it got to the point where, dude, I was... I don't know if you're familiar with dosing, but I was eating like 200 milligrams of THC a night.
91:07
I used to run a weed company. Okay, there we go. Perfect. 200 milligrams, which for some people... That's a ton. That's a lot. And I worked my way up, but I...
91:16
It wasn't enjoyable. I would take it and then I would like green out and I would grip the sheets. I would lay in my bed and grip the sheets as I would have these insane heart palpitations and I couldn't sleep. Every fucking night I would do it. It only brought me discomfort and pain. But I couldn't stop or I'd be drinking too much. And so it's like I fell into the trap or whatever you want to call it of like huge success in sort of like a very specific way, like money. And like, he's got like millions of followers, but like my life, my actual life is sort of falling apart all around me.
91:49
But, The idea of complaining about this to people, it's a joke.
91:55
Oh my God, I just had this fucking huge deal signed and I have this amazing stuff and it's like no one gives a fuck about you.
92:02
They don't.
92:03
And so it's hard, man. Your world shrinks. And so to the question or the comments around like you're a sellout, whatever.
92:13
There's a huge toll to doing this.
92:17
I'm not saying that the challenges that I have are worse or whatever than other people's problems, far from it. But the idea that anybody that's been relatively successful in social media and content is just living this great life.
92:34
Dude, it's really hard and it really changes your life in some really negative ways, especially when people start to associate you with money.
92:43
And yeah.
92:44
What did Mrs. Ballin say during all that?
92:46
My wife's awesome, Amanda.
92:48
She must be.
92:49
She's fucking great. She's awesome, dude. I met her in college when I went back to college to EMS Amherst.
92:55
The cool thing about Amanda is she doesn't give a fuck about Mr. Ballin at all, like none, but she loves John and she loves me as her husband and the father of our kids.
93:09
And she's just like naturally very, very grounding for me because she met me when I met her, so I was in college. And by this point, I've had my meeting with Dave and Pete up at the camp in New Hampshire. I'm back at UMass Amherst because I reapplied. I'm gonna close it out at UMass Amherst. I'm gonna go to the SEAL teams. That's my plan. And so I'm like training a lot. I'm running and working out.
93:32
And I go to my buddy's apartment and his mutual, or a friend of his was this other group that Amanda was a part of. And she came over one night and then we're just like sitting around this apartment. And Amanda and I just were like sitting by this, the kitchen island and we're just like talking. And I wasn't like, I wasn't bragging at all, but I was like talking about, you know, what I was gonna do after college. And I was like, well, you know, I'm gonna, I'm going to go try out and try to become a Navy SEAL. And Amanda, and most people, when they hear this, they're like, oh, wow, like, whoa, cool. And Amanda, I'm sitting and she's standing next to me and just unprompted, she reaches up and she grabs my arm, like my biceps, like reaches under and squeezes it.
94:12
And she just goes, I don't know.
94:14
I don't know.
94:15
I don't know if you're going to make it. What did she say when you said I'm going to be a full-time TikToker?
94:19
oh well you know the thing is is by that point she had seen me because she she was with me when i i was she's been with me since 2010 you know i was in buds she was with me in buds she was me for all the deployments and everything um she was with me when uh like i fucking lost my mind on my second deployment when i went to south america i had a mental breakdown she's been with me for everything
94:42
Have you talked about that much? No. Right down to South America?
94:44
No, I haven't.
94:45
Do you want to share? You don't have to.
94:46
No, I brought it up for that reason because it really ties to Amanda.
94:51
Yeah, I haven't really talked about it. So in Afghanistan, the way that it's been sort of the way that the story goes publicly about how I got medically retired is gets blown up by grenade, survives, and then gets medically retired. And in some ways that is true. And I've never actually said explicitly one exactly went to the next. It's always been like, well, I got hurt and then subsequently I did get medically retired and it was connected to the grenade, it was. But what people don't know is there actually was a deployment that happened in between that.
95:26
I come back from Afghanistan in 2014. I was literally blown up. And then like, I think it was like seven days later, I'm like literally pushing a shopping cart in like Home Depot. I'm like home, like hobbling around.
95:42
No debrief, no processing.
95:43
No. And they do have, they have a way to do that. I didn't. Because of the way wound care is handled and what I needed, I sort of was ushered out.
95:52
And I felt like...
95:58
In Special Operations in particular, no one says this, but it's sort of a thing, or it was when I was in, that it's like, You wanna go to war, you do. You wanna go to war, and it's not even like a bloodlust thing, it's more of a, this is the thing that we're supposed to be able to do, and it's sort of like this incredible, not in a good way, but like this crazy thing to go to war, and to really actively be participating in it.
96:30
And you- Not fun.
96:32
no and i i i got the chance to go and i say that that sounds weird to say it that way but i i was i was thrilled and weirdly enough and this is some shit that i probably haven't even fully processed i remember the last one of the last things i told my wife before i went to afghanistan we don't have kids yet but like i told her i was like i hope i die there
96:55
Oh no.
96:56
And she's like, what the fuck are you?
96:57
That's a terrible thing to say or what?
96:59
I was like, yeah, I can't think of a better way to die than to be in combat. And I meant it. It wasn't even like, I'm so depressed.
97:07
It was sort of like the opposite. It was like, this is my hero's journey. I'm gonna go die in Afghanistan. And I couldn't even believe I was saying it to her laying in bed in her house in Virginia. And she was like mad about it. She's like, why would you say this to me now? And I'm like, I'm just being honest. And so I had this like weird mentality and like I go to Afghanistan and like, honestly, in a way it was many of the things I thought it would be. And many of the things I didn't, there were some fucking horrible things over there. Like the way that I acted at times, not like illegally or something, but the person I became was like, I was the guy that's, that would, would talk to people on target after the shooting was done.
97:46
Or just like, I was like the interrogation is the wrong word. Cause it's, it's very sensitive. If you call yourself an interrogator, there's a whole course for that. There's levels of clearance. I wasn't any of that. I was like, uh, I was known as a tactical questioner. And what it meant is I would often be alone and with people that were just trying to kill me and i'm trying to extract information from them really quickly about things that we need to know right now and i'm a navy seal and i've been trained in certain ways and there were things that i was doing that were like barbaric and like what just like violence committing violence to extract information and you have that voice going dude what are you doing yeah And I couldn't stop, dude.
98:33
There was moments of, it was thrilling and so fucked up at the same time.
98:40
Again, I never did anything that would not pass the test of, are you allowed to? But I was- That doesn't mean it's not awful. No, it was like the humanity's gone.
98:54
We had a guy, and I still think about this guy, who came into our care, whatever you wanna call it.
99:04
He was like some sort of informant or something, I don't fucking know.
99:08
And I made the decision to shave his beard, which literally signals to any of his handlers that he's been in American custody. And what do you think happened to him? Get killed. Yeah.
99:21
And I knew that was gonna happen.
99:24
In Spec Ops, do they train you to dehumanize the enemy? To make it easier?
99:28
Yeah.
99:29
Yeah, I would think so.
99:31
Yeah, and then there was this fucking...
99:33
I don't know of another way.
99:34
Huh? I don't know of another way. Well, there isn't. I mean, it's like you're asking people to go commit violence, like really intimate violence.
99:47
It's like, I mean, I struggled mightily with sort of the reality of what we have been asked to do because, you know, when I look back at that deployment...
99:58
I did all the things that we're trained to do, you know? And like, I remember there was this one kid and he lived, but just sometimes we'd have people turned over. We were staying at this outstation that's like way off in the sticks in Afghanistan.
100:16
And periodically the Afghani police or army would like drag in some person they claimed was like, oh, they're passing information to Al Qaeda or the Taliban. And honestly, it was so corrupt. Like there's 99% of the time it was just, they didn't like somebody.
100:35
And somehow or another, we got this 16 year old kid in our custody and I was called over to go talk to him.
100:44
And like, I don't have kids at this point. I'm like 25 or six or whatever I am.
100:49
And I'm in this small room with him and I made him stand in this like fucking like bin of ice for some reason, which is just stupid. But like I had him like stand in ice and it wasn't even, I wasn't even like asking him questions. I was like humiliating him.
101:05
And you've got to remember that it sounds just like I'm, I've lost my humanity, but in a way, like, when you are in an environment where like, it isn't that you are literally being shot at 24 seven and far from it.
101:21
but you're in an environment where death could come at any moment for real. Like we were in a base that like theoretically could be overrun at any time. We had like this thing called a P-Tids blimp overhead that constantly looked for like suicide bombers that would attack us at any moment. We had to sleep with like weapons right by our bed and had to be ready to go run out. And like, you know, so you're living in an environment that's nothing like being a civilian. And in order to not just survive, but thrive, You take on, a lot of guys did, this like primal state.
101:55
And when you're the guy that's meant to be in a weird way, like the intimidator, like you need to go in and you need to scare the fuck out of these dudes into giving you information.
102:07
You need to embody that persona and make sure your dudes are confident that you can do that. And I really took to it.
102:15
And it's funny now, it's not funny, but I'm so not the guy that's walking around, puffing my chest out, trying to be intimidating. But in Afghanistan, I was the guy that was put in the room to fuck with people and get them to give us information and scare people into doing.
102:34
Why would you be chosen for that?
102:35
I was really fucking good at it. Walk me through and... I was just...
102:41
I had this weird ability to stare at people and get them to see that I'm prepared to kill you right now. I'm genuinely prepared to kill you.
102:51
Did you ever tell them stories?
102:54
Yeah. Because stories can be used as a weapon for sure.
102:57
There was, there were definitely moments where I would, it was a little bit difficult. I spoke very broken Pashtun and Farsi. We had an interrogator, we had interpreters.
103:13
but there were some people that broke really quickly. And by broke, I don't mean lengthy interrogations or anything, but they quickly understood that you're in a closed room, there's no surveillance overhead. If you die in here, no one's gonna do anything about it. And they've been up against NATO, for long enough to know that like, you don't want to be in closed rooms with, by the way, I wasn't, I was wearing like shorts, like cut off shorts and a fucking flannel. And like my kit doesn't look normal. I have like a fucking Bowie knife on my chest and I have like all this kit.
103:46
That's like not normal. I have a fucking huge ass Mohawk and this weird facial hair and I'm like gaunt. And just like, I've been out here like doing these operations for months and we've been getting shot at and shooting it back at people. Like, It came across when I was in the room with people like my capacity for violence is higher than yours.
104:10
And I'm backed by people out there. Right. You're tied to a chair.
104:14
You got to do it. And so, um, but that kid, I remember I just, I knew why he was handed over to us. It was actually because he had taken some pot shots at us, like our convoy as we like rolled into our camp or whatever.
104:31
And I don't really know what his story was, but it's like, okay, you're a 16-year-old kid. We know that the Taliban routinely, summarily will just execute people in these neighboring villages. We know there have been cases of people being told, go shoot at the Americans, or we're going to fucking kill your family.
104:49
And this kid is in this impossible situation where, first of all, if you shoot at us, forget NATO, if you shoot at our platoon, we're going to kill you. And I don't mean like in a, we might find you at some, I mean like literally you're gonna die because we will track you, we will find you and kill you.
105:12
There weren't any survivors. I mean, that's an exaggeration. But it was sort of like, if we saw you and you engaged us, you're fucking dead. That's what's going to happen. We're going to call in fucking JDAMs. We're going to lock on you with our .50 cal and our up-armored vehicles where you can't even hit us. Even if you shot us 50 fucking times, you're dead.
105:31
But this kid, it's like he's shooting at a convoy. He's been handed over to us. But like, what else is he going to do? He probably was put up to it. And it's like, here I am.
105:41
He didn't have that gun. He didn't, he had nothing. He's a kid. Someone gave him the gun. He's a kid and like, but I was like dealing with, I wasn't alone in the room and this doesn't, I'm not putting blame on other people, but it's like me and a more senior guy who's like watching.
105:59
There's no blame here, I don't think. This is just a thing.
106:03
And I'm like getting physical with this kid and it's just, he clearly doesn't even know what to do. He wasn't mouthing off or anything? No, he like literally didn't know what to do. And eventually I sort of stopped and we let the kid go. And it was like almost, it was a joke by the end. It's like, fuck this kid. Like you can go, he's not useful to us. And we turned him back over and I know he survived at least several days later.
106:25
But like the reason I say all that is like the...
106:29
Well, actually, no, there's one other that I would say I've never spoken about publicly.
106:36
Towards the end of the time I was in Afghanistan, we did this operation where we were just sort of clearing this valley, which sort of is a generic way of saying we were sort of marching through an area with known militants, and we just were seeing what happened.
106:51
And we did get into a contact. They're shooting at us. We're shooting back at them, but it was like at a distance.
106:58
And we totally within the rules of engagement called in an airstrike on, on a group of military age males. And we struck them. We used a hellfire missile, which is like a relatively precise, small munition that is very lethal to like people close by, but not so lethal if you're like 10, I'm probably wrong about the actual distances, but like if you're near it, but not that close, you might get maimed, but you're not going to die.
107:20
you
107:23
and um this guy this older guy got badly wounded uh we thought he was dead uh and so after you you kill someone or kill anybody we you know or even just after any sort of contact you do like a battle damage assessment you'll go and you'll like look at what happened and document it we have like these fingerprint scanners like it's called a seek you like take dead guys hands and like so there's a process to it and it's literally to document what happened And it doesn't mean that we constantly were killing everybody and whatever.
107:56
But we went over to, not me, but another element within our platoon went over to do the battle damage assessment on this drop. And they found this guy, as they're getting closer, they could see he was still alive. He's an older guy. He's been gravely injured.
108:10
And he's clearly bleeding to death.
108:13
He's like propped up against a tree. He's fucking, he's in a really bad way. He's gonna die, but he's totally alive. He's like dying a slow and miserable death.
108:23
And I mean, truly, I can't even get into like who said this, but put it this way. There was, there were, there were senior people that were there that day.
108:33
And it was like, uh, Hey, Alan, like write a passage. And they pulled a knife that we had, we had gotten off of one of the guys we'd killed earlier.
108:42
And they were like, go, go finish them off.
108:45
And they were like, as I took the knife and I'm walking over to this village, like the guy's family was out. Like they're all out in the courtyard and And they were telling me, I'm Foxtrot 8 was my call sign.
109:12
They were like, make sure you go inside of a building first.
109:15
And I remember I just, I didn't want to do it. I walk over to where there's this group of crying women and children and they know what's happening.
109:27
And I start walking over to this guy and I'm like, I'm about to murder someone. This is different than other stuff.
109:36
And right as I'm like nearing him, I didn't literally have the knife up, but as I'm like, as close as you and I are, and I see how fucked up he is and he's looking at me and he knows what's happening.
109:47
One of the best fucking dudes I've ever met on the planet. Also a new guy.
109:53
He walked over and he was like, no, you're not doing that. And he literally, he came over the radio and he's junior, the junior guy. And there are very senior dudes on target. This is a fucking big deal. He's like, he's not doing this.
110:08
Right now, we're gonna call in a medevac. We're gonna get this guy help. We cannot become fucking savages. We can't kill people like this. Can't do it.
110:15
Were you gonna do it?
110:16
Yeah.
110:18
And that in a weird way, even though I didn't do it and the guy was brought to a hospital, I gotta be honest, I don't know what happened to him.
110:27
Like in a way, I don't know what to do with the fact that I would have killed him. That's a moment that changes you.
110:36
It's different than shooting at a building in front of his family.
110:41
And I mean, dude, so not long after that, like very shortly after that day, um, you know, I have the near death experience of the grenade blowing up near me and I'm suddenly like medevaced out of country and I'm like back home and I just, I never, the mentality of being that guy, the interrogator, if you will, the guy willing to murder, it didn't go away, you know?
111:16
And it didn't mean that I was like being violent, but like.
111:20
What do you mean it didn't go away? You carried what?
111:23
I was so fucking mad.
111:24
Yeah.
111:26
And you know what's funny? And I can only, I know this now, I remember being so critical mentally, like internally, very critical of anybody who claimed PTSD, who in my mind didn't deserve to be able to claim that.
111:44
Because in my mind, I'm like...
111:46
I'm a fucking Navy SEAL. I've been to war. I fuck, I almost died. You know, I'm the fucking man. That was sort of my mentality. Non-ironically, that was like actually how I felt. And I remember thinking, and I don't even have PTSD. I don't have any of that shit. Like I'm fucking good to go, right?
112:04
And very quickly, I got into another, the way it works on the white side, so anything not SEAL Team Six, all the other teams, you're in these two-year rotation cycles where it's like you deploy for usually six months, then you come back, and you're almost immediately, within reason, in another cycle. Often with a different team, different platoon, you do 18 months of training to go deploy for another six months, so it's a constantly. And then sometimes you're pulled out of the rotation and you do a teaching cycle. You go become a BUDS instructor for a couple of years.
112:34
But I pretty much right away was put back into a rotation by choice. As a new guy, you sort of do back-to-back tours, back-to-back rotations before you can do anything else.
112:43
Well, hang on. Did Amanda see anything different about you when you got back?
112:47
I don't know. I know that I was, well, yeah, she did. For sure she did. I would say my temper was pretty extreme and it wasn't extreme like I was mad all the time.
113:05
I would get so, so, so mad about everything. Like I remember the homeowners association in Virginia Beach, they were pretty nitpicky and they like came around. Yeah, everyone does.
113:23
Tell me I can't put an American flag in front of my house. I'll pay the fine.
113:27
They were mad about our chimney cap being rusted.
113:32
And I was so mad. And I called them. Do you have any fucking clue who I am? And they're like, sir, we have no idea who you are. I was in fucking Afghanistan. You don't get it. It's like, sir, how could we have known that? Right.
113:46
We just want you to paint it.
113:47
Please, please. We'll even do it for you.
113:51
But I was just mad a lot. But the thing is, is I was really quickly back into another rotation. I had injuries that were bad.
114:00
Right now, I have 26 pieces of shrapnel that are still in my leg. They're... microscopic at this point but like i have pain in my ankle i got pain in my hip they debrided as much as they could but i had like real real issues with with pain in my leg and then also i still have this i have pretty serious shoulder pain um the grenade blast when it happened it dislocated both my shoulders like briefly like it's slap tear it tore both labrums So I had like really bad shoulder pain and like, I'm sort of hobbling around a little bit, but I was able to sort of, I got the bicep tendonesis surgery, which sort of patches shit up.
114:34
And, and I was just like, I, I, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a guy that's done some shit. I'm a Navy SEAL with combat experience. I'm getting into another rotation. I'm deploying again. I'm not, I'm not a guy with PTSD. Like, pfft.
114:45
And so I'm like immersed pretty much right away with like the next cycle. And even though it's 18 months till you deploy again, you're training constantly. There's no psyche valve coming back on rotation? No, like you're just in it.
114:57
And someone's got to know like, this guy's probably not ready.
115:01
The thing is, is I was one of many. Yeah, of course.
115:04
And two cousins that came back fucked up from this. One in the core, one in army.
115:09
And so we end up. And they're still fucked up. It's unfortunate, you know?
115:15
I ended up 18 months later deploying to Peru.
115:21
to do like, I mean, basically counter drug operations, but like in a really indirect way. I mean, effectively we were going over there to train, you know, on a daily basis, other, they're called the FOE's, the Fuerza de Operaciones Especiales, how to do drug interdictions. And then they would go sort of execute and we'd sort of advise to some degree, but it was like very, very more advisory, right?
115:48
And I remember I was in a school for the Navy called JTAC school. I was learning how to talk to aircraft and call in airstrikes and stuff. And it meant that I would deploy after the group had already landed in Peru because we were very fragmented. I was going to be deploying with just like seven or eight guys versus a full platoon to a full troop to Afghanistan was like 50 or 60.
116:09
And I had put no thought, honestly, into the South America tour. Because I'm like, dude, I was in Afghanistan. I've seen combat. Like, this is going to be stupid. Like, fucking dumb. You know, I thought of it as just a waste of time. Like, it's just, hopefully we'll get through it real quick. And then I'll go, you know, maybe I'll try out for DevGuru or something.
116:31
And I...
116:33
I got on the plane and I flew to Germany and I'm going with just like two other guys. Actually, one of them was actually Jim Flatley. Love that guy.
116:42
And actually, that was our trip to Afghanistan. I think I flew to South America by myself. I did, yeah, I'm confusing the two. I flew to South America alone. So I fly to Germany, and then I fly to South America.
116:55
And when I got there, I had been given instructions to like, hey, you're gonna land in this airport. It's predominantly Spanish speaking, because Peru is very non-English. It's very non-English.
117:07
And you're gonna meet up with your driver, you'll get your stuff. And we were staying in this house, we, the seals that were there, in Miraflores, Peru, which is fucking beautiful. This is like where you go if you're rich and you wanna go on an amazing vacation, you go to Miraflores. And we were staying in this literal mansion in a compound. It was in this beautiful neighborhood that was so expensive, so affluent. And it was actually next to like a slum that was like the murder capital of South America.
117:41
But, you know, we were there because it's like, you know, we're not really doing direct operations at all. We're just there to advise, like the government's putting us up in a nice place. We're gonna work out of here, commute in, whatever.
117:52
And so I land in South America and I don't know how to describe it. It was like I had like in the most cliche way, like a flashback.
118:00
I hadn't given much thought to the Afghanistan deployment really at all beyond like the top level, like I'm so cool sort of mentality. But I land in South America, in Peru, and it was like, oh my God, I'm in another country. That sounds stupid, but I had discounted this so much in my mind because it wasn't going to be combat. And I'm in a foreign country. I don't speak a lick of Spanish. I blew off any of the Spanish training. I didn't give a fuck about it. I've seen combat. I have a fucking Purple Heart. I don't give a shit about any of this.
118:32
And I got in the car, which was such a nightmare, trying to navigate this very crowded little airport, and everyone's speaking Spanish, and I'm so lost.
118:42
And I finally find my car that's gonna bring me to the house, and he didn't speak any English, and it was like, I don't even know where I'm going, and we're driving. And it's like, you're driving through, at times, when we got to the Miraflores area, it was beautiful, but a lot of the drive was through some really rough neighborhoods. And one of the things that was immediately striking when I was in Afghanistan is there's nothing quite like driving through an area in Afghanistan that's like war torn and like rough.
119:11
Video doesn't do it. Like hearing other people, it's just different when you're looking out the window and you're like, this is literally like war. That's where we are.
119:19
And driving through like the slums of Peru, where like truly there's like child hitmen out here.
119:30
I was like, holy fuck. I am like, I am not ready for this. I'm not ready to be here.
119:37
And dude, I...
119:40
I got there and I didn't really know the guys that were part of the team. It was sort of a hodgepodge of seals and techs.
119:49
I think the statute of limitations have passed, so I can be honest about some stuff.
119:55
They sold clonzapan, clonzapan, it's a benzodiazepine over the counter there.
120:01
And I discovered that really early on.
120:04
That's pretty addictive stuff, that benzo.
120:06
Dude, I became hopelessly addicted to it.
120:10
And I was drinking constantly. I had my fuck, oh yeah, because I began having suicidal tendencies. Not even suicidal tendencies, I began looking up like how likely is it to die from drinking too much on a Benzo?
120:28
And it's pretty high. You're looking that up. So you know this is, I'm hurting myself here. So you're aware of that, but you're doing it.
120:36
I don't even really remember the first month that I was there. Dude, I went so overboard.
120:45
I would like just go out at night. And this is like not okay what I was doing. I put the team in a lot. I put them in a very hard place. I would go out at night and not tell anyone. High as fuck, not even high. I don't even know how you describe what it's like to be fucked up on benzos. You're like, wow, I'm so lucid. I'm so focused. But you're fucking not.
121:06
I'm not going to remember any of this. No.
121:08
And I would just go out and wander the streets. And I went to this one area where it was like homeless people of like the slums of Peru. And I would just like sit there and smoke cigarettes with like, and I'd like stay there all night. And I'd like, I began going there on purpose to like ask them about if they had suicidal thoughts. I'm like sitting with, they didn't even speak English. I didn't even, now that I'm thinking about it, like I'm speaking English. I'm like a rambling fucked up dude.
121:37
And it got to the point where my team literally they're like dude what the fuck is wrong with they took my gun away of course i was i was watched 24 7 and coming down off benzos is fucking horrible it's also you can like die coming down off benzos but my my team that was there i mean luckily a lot of them had been with me in afghanistan and sort of like you know if there was ever some good grace there i think they understood that it isn't that i'd seen so much shit it was just like was i was really struggling with frankly the the role i played in afghanistan that a lot of the guys that i was there with actually weren't even fully aware of was like that behind closed doors guy that like the the not honorable stuff like in some ways you could make the case that like at least out on the open battlefield there's honor and you know like you're both sort of having a shot at each other i believe that after action when someone's fucking they can't do anything and they're in a room with just
122:43
you and like you can do anything to them there's no honor in that there's none and i i hated myself for it and i lost my mind i began having this this is on the towards the tail end of that first month i was hallucinating I had the same hallucination all the time.
123:00
I'd be laying in my room and it was so muggy in Peru. There's constant moisture. Everything's wet and it was hot. We didn't have air conditioning.
123:11
I'm laying on my sweaty ass sheets that I never cleaned. That was so fucking gross, just unclean.
123:17
And I would fall into this weird mindset of, I would be convinced I was on a corner in Russia, like on a street corner in Russia. And it's like all brown buildings around me. And I'd be like standing on the street corner. And like, I felt like I had orders, like military orders to be there. And I like had to be there. And I would lay on my bed, believing I was standing in Russia on a street corner for fucking like hours and hours and hours, just like unmoving. I would just sit there and then I'd like come out of it and be like, what the fuck am I even doing?
123:51
And then I'd like go pop some benzodiazepines.
123:56
Are you working at all during any of this?
123:58
Are you advising? I didn't do shit on that deployment.
124:02
You didn't have a CO that's like, dude.
124:04
I was a liability. And I was such a liability that they, I think they recognized that this is career ending for sure if anybody finds out that you're doing this.
124:17
It should be, shouldn't it?
124:19
I should be out of the military. You're not fucking fit to be here. And it got to the point where I was openly saying, I want to fucking die. I want to be done. But to be honest, it was almost like my own cop-out. I don't even know what I'm doing. And I didn't even know why I was so upset, but it was definitely tethered to like this belief that like I'm a fucking fraud. There's like the people that back home think I'm like this honorable war hero, the guy that I really wished I was.
124:48
I know I'm not. I know I'm not. Like there are things that I did not need to do. Forget blame or not. Just things that I found myself doing overseas that are just inhuman and did not need to be done.
125:02
But I knew I could do them with impunity.
125:05
And living with that, knowing that there's no recourse. Did you finally figure out who you were angry at?
125:13
You know now.
125:15
I mean, I was fucking mad at myself. I know that.
125:17
You're mad at yourself.
125:19
I mean, it's shame is what it was.
125:20
It was intense shame.
125:23
And so when I came back from Peru and actually I did do the whole deployment and it was only because my team frankly kept me there and looked after me. And frankly, I bet they fucking hated the fuck out of me while I was there, but they protected me.
125:40
And I actually, it's, I remember it was just, it was just, it was a lot, but I came home from that deployment and I didn't really even know how much my wife, my family even knew. Like I didn't really even know, like, I had, at one point I knew that some of my teammates were reaching out to dudes stateside to be like, what did we do with Allen?
126:03
They were while you were down there.
126:04
Because they didn't want the command to find out because it would be bad for me and my career. But I know it eventually found its way to my wife and my in-laws and my parents. And it apparently was like this huge issue back home because it's like, I have a fragmented family. My parents were divorced. And they're finding out that like, wait a minute. So John's taking drugs.
126:32
He's talked about suicide. They're losing track of him at times. He's basically can't even do his job.
126:38
And they're not telling the command.
126:41
The fuck is that? Like, what are we gonna do? And it was like this crisis within my family of, do we go to South America and like literally take him home? No. Can't really do that. And so oddly enough, Dave and Pete were the guys that were tapped to get in touch with me. And the same guys that sort of helped find the vision to get me in were the same ones that they're like, dude, they like called me all the time while I was out in South America. I remember just like weeping on the phone to them. And I don't even know what we talked about, but they were just like there for me in a way.
127:15
And they also just, there was no judgment being passed. It was like, this is sort of what happens, you know?
127:20
And they were like, when you get home, you need to fucking clean your shit up and figure out if this is what you wanna do.
127:26
And so really because of everybody around me, I, I survived literally that deployment.
127:34
Uh, and I come home and I'm just fucking broken. Like I'm broken. And it, it came to a head and I, I love my kids. I, and at this point I had, I had a, I had a daughter.
127:50
And in like the first year I was home, I had this feeling when I was alone with my daughter that I was gonna hurt her. And I never did, and I never ever came close to it, but I'm telling you that one of the things that I would do overseas is I'd be in closed rooms like hurting people.
128:07
And I was trying so hard to like not be that person. And I, the worst times, and it's like so shameful, and I brought it up so many times to like my therapist, And it's actually what this, I would say this story that I'm going to tell you is what prompted my medical retirement. It was, I went to my therapist cause I was told by my own team at this time. Cause when I came back from that deployment, I was in a training cell. They're like, dude, you need to go see somebody.
128:35
we know what happened in Peru. Everybody fucking does like, you need to go see someone.
128:40
And she asked me like, how are you doing? And I was sort of like, not really telling her stuff like how, you know, downplaying it. And I, I told her, I was like, I have this thing though, where when I'm giving my kids a bath, I'm worried I'm going to like drown my kids.
128:57
And I have to tell my wife to come in and finish the bath because I'm worried I'm going to do that. And I said it to her, like, you know,
129:03
Yeah. It's a thought that everyone has this thought.
129:05
And she goes, you, you literally, you have to find a way to like stop that. And if, I mean, she's like, I've had other people that similar shoes to you that are had to remove all the knives from their house because they're, they're worried they're going to do something. She's like, this is, this is trauma. This is trauma playing out.
129:24
Did you tell Amanda what you were thinking?
129:26
Yeah.
129:27
And I can say that that was a, that was an Amanda new, like, I don't know what's going on with my husband. Like, I don't know what happened to him. I shared some details with her, um, more intimate details about sort of Afghanistan and behind closed doors stuff.
129:50
And, um, the fear of me harming the things that I would literally die for in a heartbeat. I love my kids more than anything. I've never, ever, ever come close to laying a hand on them at all. But the fact that that thought would enter my mind and I had to like actively mitigate it, I had to like have a man, like I couldn't do bath time. Dad can't do bath time because dad might drown you.
130:13
Like it was so fucked up. And so I began, as soon as I admitted that to my Navy psych, She's like, I don't think you're fit to be in this line of work anymore. And she was like, also like from a physical standpoint, like you have serious issues with your shoulders. You have serious issues with the shrapnel. Like that alone probably would be enough to start thinking about it. If you wanted to push through it, you could, but she's like, I'm telling you right now, like you're on a path that this doesn't end well for you. It doesn't end well for your family. And you're probably not even fit to be a seal anymore.
130:47
And I gotta be honest. I was like, holy shit.
130:49
You're right. Like I'm not fucking fit to do this job. And honestly, I was grappling so hard with like, what, why, why did we go to Afghanistan? Why were we doing any, forget the honor or dishonor of what we did. It's like- I don't know why. What the fuck are we doing over there?
131:07
I don't know.
131:08
I was there and I don't know.
131:09
I don't know.
131:11
And it's like, but wait a minute. I have family who's there. We don't know. But it's like, we fucking killed people. Yeah. Why?
131:18
Politics.
131:20
And then realizing that, like, I have potentially permanently damaged myself. Not to mention the damage I've done to other people, of course. I'm saying, like... Well, that 16-year-old kid still remembers that day.
131:33
I bet. I bet. That family of that old man still remember the America with the knife.
131:39
It's just...
131:41
And so I ultimately was medically retired due to like mental instability.
131:46
I mean, there was an attribution because they give you percentages of like literally this is why you were retired.
131:53
I wanna say it was like 20 or 30% like physical injury to legs, like 50% like mentally not fit to do this job.
132:04
And even if I hadn't been medically retired, I, after coming home from that Peru disaster, I like was truly at odds with not only what I had done, but like with just the idea of what I was doing. Like, even if it had been like, like politics, you know?
132:25
And so now.
132:29
It's like, there's this part of me that exists, but is fully suppressed all the time.
132:35
And I, I've described it to people, not a lot, actually really not a lot at all, but it's like, I view in some ways, and maybe this is giving myself too much, not credit, but leniency.
132:47
The sacrifice that a lot of people end up making in the military is of course, there are people that pay the ultimate sacrifice that die or who are physically maimed in a really horrible way.
132:59
But I would imagine that there's also like this thing that's called moral injury. It's a term that gets thrown around a lot.
133:06
There's like this sacrifice of fucking yourself up mentally in a way that'll never be fixed. Never fucking ever, because you did damage to other people in the process.
133:17
And that is a burden that is in a way, like it doesn't comport with society. You can't, like, let's think about it. If I said, Hey guys, I'm really struggling with PTSD because, you know, I combat was scary and like getting shot at was scary. People are like, wow, like I feel bad for you, whatever.
133:36
I'm really fucked up because I brutalized people that really, they were like sort of harmless and literally probably innocent.
133:44
You believe in God? Huh? You believe in God? I certainly found God in Peru.
133:49
He's going to be displeased.
133:51
Yeah.
133:53
I, uh, But I think that when I think about the sacrifice of the military, it's... And I don't say it in like an honorable way. I mean like the literal sacrifices at the end of it.
134:07
I think some people, me being one of them, walk away a damaged person who did a lot of damage. And it's not the...
134:17
The mechanism by which that happened is not something that works well in society to talk about.
134:23
It's okay to talk about when your friends got killed. It's okay to talk about like being in combat. It's not okay to talk about the time that you were gonna go murder somebody, but luckily somebody intervened or when you fucked people up behind closed doors, frankly, because you could.
134:38
Like there's really not much more to it. Or like that you took great pleasure in when you rolled into villages and you watched the women and children run for their fucking lives out into the desert.
134:50
And you're gonna go kill their husbands and their brothers and their sons. You're gonna fucking kill them. That's what you're gonna go do. And like, you don't even know why. And you're like, fuck yeah.
134:59
That's a tough thing to live with. Not only that you did it, but that you were fucking stoked to go do it. And so now being Mr. Paul, and I think one of the things I try really hard to do is like, just even if inside there's this horribly fucked up part of me, like I try so hard to like, just be like a good person now and not like it makes up for anything I did or whatever, but it's like giving people an outlet.
135:27
you know, weirdly about dark stuff, giving them a distraction from life feels like, you know, sort of a service that's good for people, take their mind off things that are bad in their lives. I think that's worth something.
135:38
You know, the foundation, you know, I care a lot about what we're doing with the Mr. Ballin Foundation, but like the reality is it's like, Dude, I will always carry with me a belief that no one really knows what a fucking horrible person I was.
135:54
There's a theme running through your story that's starting to emerge, and that's one of penance and conscience.
136:00
When we get in the third segment, I'm going to bring that up again with regards to your book.
136:09
It's brutal, man.
136:11
yeah i remember dude when i when i came back from afghanistan i was so fucking proud so so proud to like be a seal you know a lot of veteran creators allow their myth to grow yeah and you keep correcting the record down nobody else does that why is it so important to keep the record straight I've found that one of the times I feel most proud of myself now is when I'm being like self, not self-deprecating, but like brutally honest about who I really am.
137:00
I think that I have pretended to be somebody at times in my life, most notably the seal thing, not pretended, I took on a persona.
137:10
Now it's like, I get a lot of, I would even call it fulfillment. Maybe it's penance. I don't know.
137:17
Out of like saying the ugly truths about yourself, big or small, you know, like I, one of the stories that I tell that is like really sort of humiliating and in no way really makes me even look like I got anything good out of this story, but I tell it, I've told it, I'm sure millions of people have heard it, it's the story of when I'm at the tail end of SEAL training and there's this like rite of passage where you gotta sit in a cloud of poisonous gas, CS gas, and you gotta just like take it and not run, you know?
137:49
And as soon as the gas kicked off, we're all standing in this field in formation. We're all like, the 50 of us, we're all crouched together, and I'm on the outside of our flank, and we're all kneeling in this field, and all the instructors have these pool sticks. And at the end of the pool sticks, there's the CS canisters that have been lit off, this huge white cloud of poisonous gas, which makes you feel like you're on fire when you breathe it in.
138:10
And they're dousing us in CS gas. And you got to sit there. It's like 30 seconds or a minute or whatever it is. It's a long, miserable time. And it's like, don't fucking run. And the instructors have the gas masks on.
138:24
I began inhaling. This is late in training too. This is like everybody here is going to be a Navy SEAL, everybody.
138:31
And I began inhaling the gas and it was like fight or flight kicked in, completely kicked in. And I'm fucking out of there. Wasn't thinking, nothing. I am up and I'm sprinting away from the group. No one else did, zero others. I was tackled by an instructor. And they said, get back with your fucking class. And I was like, no, fuck no, no.
138:58
Not even consciously thinking, I'm just doing. This is survival coming in, right?
139:03
And so they held me to the ground as my class sits there and takes the gas. And they don't even know it's happened yet because they're so caught up in being poisoned. Sure, it's distracting. And they afterwards...
139:17
they all ran to the ocean and jumped in the ocean. And then we all had to run back out on San Clemente Island in Coronado.
139:24
We run back into the classroom and it's like this tiered seating, like a college classroom.
139:30
And everybody's sitting in there and no one really knows what happened. In fact, no one even is thinking that somebody ran because that doesn't really happen. That doesn't happen.
139:39
And everyone's sitting in there and I know what's happened and I'm sitting in the back and I had jumped in the ocean too. So no one knew I did or didn't do it. And our instructors, they come in finally, they show up after us. We're always sitting there waiting patiently with our notebook and pencil and water bottle, ready to go.
139:55
And they come in and the main instructor who was just, oh, I fucking hated this guy. Not because of what he'd said or did, but he was just really diabolical. That's his job. That's his job. And he did a good job. He comes in and he looks up and he goes, where's the pussy?
140:15
And I know it's me.
140:17
And I stand up and no one really knows what it's about.
140:20
And he proceeds to go, Alan, I don't want to serve with you. I think you're a fucking coward.
140:28
He was like, hey guys, he ran during the CS gas. I'm telling you right now, you don't want to be in a gunfight with that guy.
140:35
Like if he's going to run now, what's he going to do when your life's in the line? He fucking bailed on you. He's like, Alan, sit the fuck down. But he's like, I hope you do not get your trident. I don't want to serve with you.
140:45
Now, normally it's like, yo, fuck you, like stupid shit. This was like a stern talking to in front of my whole class. This was on like day five of 30 days straight that you train out at the island to wrap up your training. So you're still with these guys another three weeks? I was ostracized. Was this a lesson or did he mean it?
141:06
He meant that.
141:07
I think he meant that. And I think the way he meant it was either you'll rise to the occasion and you'll overcome this or you won't and you should be gone.
141:15
I had to wear from that moment on, for the rest of the time we were out at the island, you wear camis. I had to wear these, they're called UDT shorts, like very short shorts, like canvas shorts. I had to put them over my pants to signify that I was a pussy.
141:30
And you know, I tell that story in part because it's like, I did learn to, I can't make people unhear what they heard or unthink what they think. I can only sort of bear this burden. I need to just demonstrate that I am a good teammate, that this is an anomaly and that it's a flight instinct from poisonous gas guys. It's not the same thing as like, my teammate's dying, I'm gonna bail on them.
141:55
But the reality is, I was so, so humiliated.
142:01
I came back from the island and I didn't bring it up to my wife. I didn't bring it up. I hid it. And it's like, it was like shame. Of course. Because I really took on this idea that I wasn't good enough, you know? And not trying to like create connections where there aren't.
142:21
I think from that point on, I was on a mission to prove that I was gonna be the number one Navy SEAL.
142:27
I might not be the best shot or the best at tactics, but I'll take that knife.
142:33
Maybe part of his lesson was, I know this guy's not going to fucking run now.
142:37
Very true.
142:39
There's a connection there. I've heard you say that we don't rise to our expectations. We fall to...
142:45
The level of our training. Our training. You know how that's attributed to? I actually don't, but I love that quote. It's attributed to Archilochus, who is a Greek poet, probably the father of Western storytelling, 7th century BC.
142:58
He was a warrior poet. He was the first soldier to talk about fear in battle.
143:04
Yeah.
143:04
He's famous for leaving his shield behind and saying, fuck it, this is about survival, I'll get another shield.
143:10
I'm surprised you didn't look into him because it's the same story, man.
143:13
I definitely know the quote. I have not looked into him though.
143:16
He's an anti-hero like you, like a lot of the people in your stories, which going into the break reminds me of the ancient Greeks.
143:27
You don't use a prompter. You just kind of immerse yourself in the story and you tell it differently each time when you're live and so forth. Sure.
143:35
Do you see yourself as, this is like the world's second oldest profession is the bard is just telling stories like this is Homer.
143:44
Yeah, and honestly, I can see why it's maintained its relevance for so long because it's, I think, one of the most amazing things about being a storyteller, a bard.
143:58
is when you have an audience that you can watch as they listen to your story. I mean, humans are so predisposed to like lean in when there's a story.
144:12
And if you can master the art, or if you can just get good at telling a story that has like those beats that people naturally pick up on, just watching somebody be aware that like, I'm hearing a story, there's a flow to it, there's an arc, there's gonna be some sort of resolution or twist.
144:28
We did a live tour in 2024 and we did several shows just live and it was just me telling stories to a crowd And it was just like the most fucking incredible thing. Nerve wracking as hell. And there's lots of stress around like ticket sales and stuff. But like when you're in it, I remember I was at the, uh, the Chicago theater and I, before I'm like in the green room and it's like, this is where Frank Sinatra was before he went out and it's like, what the fuck am I doing here?
145:03
And then I went out on stage and just it's a sea of people that are all wearing flannels, you know? And it was like so cool. But I remember like, I was a little nervous. It's intimidating. Just a little?
145:14
A little nervous.
145:17
But the show started and I like just got into telling stories. And I remember there was this one moment as I'm looking out at the crowd of like thousands of people And there was not one, at least from my perspective, maybe there was, but I couldn't see a single phone, none.
145:33
Just eyeballs, just like looking at me. Cause it's a story and it's like, they're invested in the story. And I also knew that like, I have something I'm going to give them in this story. It's so fucking good. And I can't wait to watch the reaction as it like flows across the crowd.
145:51
It's like the most amazing feeling.
145:55
It's hard to even put in words what it's like to have like a captive audience, whether it's big or small, just a captive audience that you're telling a story to, it's unmatched.
146:05
We'll be back in a minute. We'll talk more about how John Allen structures a story. You are famous for ethical storytelling with true crime, meeting with the families, all that stuff.
146:14
Yeah.
146:15
Tell me about a story that you were researching and you're like, I can't do it.
146:20
Ugh.
146:24
Well, this doesn't... Well, this doesn't qualify as what you're saying, but it sorted us, and it's an important story. I almost didn't do this one. I did, and I'm really glad I did.
146:38
So there's this... It's so fucking horrible.
146:43
That's what the people want.
146:46
There was this girl, Jessie Blodgett.
146:50
She was living in, I think, Illinois.
146:56
But she was murdered in her bedroom by a friend. And it was a friend that was known to the family. It was a guy. I believe there was sexual abuse as well.
147:09
But he killed her and strangled her to death in her childhood bed. She's 18. And It was their only child, Buck and Joy Blodgett, who are just very sweet people. And the reason this story, the reason I was going to tell it at all is because I found out that it was like the person you least suspected did it. They were like involved. They went to the vigil. They're like, you know, it was like the most horrible betrayal.
147:41
I had heard, I just, the top line of the story was like, Murder mystery slash like, oh my gosh, that person. Oh, you know what I mean? So it's like, okay, I, this, this fits the type of story I would probably tell.
147:55
I began watching interviews about, about it.
147:58
And like some of the stories that you'll, you'll hear about in the interviews you see of like the family, it's always devastating. It isn't like some or not, but there was this segment that I think it was Dateline did with Buck.
148:12
and buck he's describing the loss of his daughter and he was clearly extremely close with jesse like extremely close it's his only kid and there's this part where he's standing in the doorway of his daughter's room where she was killed and like you're looking at it from the hallway you're looking at buck and you're seeing her room And his voice is like cracking as he, and he's very strong. He's a strong guy. He's like, you know, I was right there.
148:44
I was like next door and I couldn't save my little girl. She was right in here and I couldn't save her.
148:50
And I just come in here and I stand right here and I look at the bed where she was murdered.
148:56
And I just, I know that I let her down as a father. I couldn't save her, right? Like, I mean, obviously like no one thinks about that with Bach and he wasn't even home at the time. Oh, he wasn't even home.
149:06
Or I should say, I think the timeline is such that it was a little bit unclear when it happened. Theoretically, he might've been just getting up for work at the time.
149:15
But listening to a father who's describing his child that he couldn't save, and even though, again, it's not entirely clear if he was literally home at the time it happened, your question about are there stories I can't do, anytime it reminds me, or I should back it up a little more, when I'm telling stories, I'm invested, I really want to ethically tell the story, But it's sort of disassociated from my personal life.
149:49
The area that I can't help but have it cross into my personal life is anytime it's like children, you know, and I have three.
149:59
And I was just thinking about immediately if one of my children were harmed in some way and I felt personally like I didn't protect them. And like seeing my child's bedroom, like this is the safest place they're supposed to have.
150:15
And so I ended up telling the story.
150:19
I spoke to Bach and Joy, you know, it was with full permission, you know, and we told the story. And I think that the rendition of what I told was very powerful because it was like based on really deep talks and sort of, it was just a great episode.
150:35
But shortly after we told that story, we ended up launching the Mr. Ballin Foundation, and that's our charity that helps victims of violent crime and their families. And one of the first grants we gave was to the Blodgett family because they had a charity that Buck had started in Jesse's name, called the love is greater than hate project where it's like, he's trying to push this idea that like love can cancel out hate if it's at scale, very small charity, but like huge heart.
151:05
It's like, he's, he's transformed extreme grief into like action.
151:09
And now we fund, you know, $25,000 every year we give to love is greater than hate. I have a great relationship with Bach. Like he, he and I talk and we text each other and like, he came, he has, he was actually at that Chicago show just by happenstance. He was there.
151:22
Um, But I think that when it comes to kids stuff, that's extremely difficult. I mean, obviously, but like, there was another story I did that I told. So I guess I'm sort of being contradictory.
151:38
That's all right.
151:39
We're still getting the stories.
151:40
Yeah, there was this guy, I think this was out in Washington State. This was back in, I want to say the 90s.
151:48
And I think his name was Mike and I'm pretty sure he was a pastor. He's not a religious guy and he was, he definitely was a pastor.
151:54
And in his, in his off time, he enjoyed going hiking and he just like regular hiking. We're not talking like Alpine crazy hikes. He loved going hiking.
152:03
And one day he decided he wanted to go on like a really long hike.
152:08
Uh, and this was out like not really off trail, but close. Like, you know, it's, it's, it's a known area that people hike, you know, there are people that go out that way out into the sticks, but it's, it's pretty remote out there. And this is a ball and setup.
152:21
I feel it.
152:22
And so he heads out, which is going to be a three day hike. And he has, not three days, maybe like four or five days. And it was sort of common that he would periodically do these longer hikes. And so he left and his family's like, they're not worried. They're going to see him in a few days.
152:39
And so I think his name is Dan.
152:42
So Dan, he hikes off into the forest and everything's going fine.
152:47
He had a journal. This is how we know this story. Oh, okay.
152:52
And at some point he decides to really go off trail.
152:55
He just was feeling, you know, spring in his step. He's feeling good. And he ends up going like hours, like off, like straight line into the wilderness until he reaches this like clearing, which is like a boulder field. Like if you're not familiar with a boulder field, it's exactly what it sounds like. Just like huge rocks, like in all directions, you know, it's like, imagine like a stony beach, but like huge boulders everywhere, but it's like loose, you know, but big rocks. And He begins jumping from rock to rock just to make his way There was a little river that sort of sat at the back end of this huge boulder field and so he's hopping rock to rock and As he's getting near this this river he slips or something happens where his foot goes down into one of the like sort of Spaces between one of the many boulders and at the same time he like knocks one of the rocks and It rotates in.
153:49
It does not crush his foot, but it completely, like perfectly locked his foot under what amounted to be like six or 700 pound rocks, just like suddenly have collapsed around one leg. He's not hurt, but there's no way to get your foot out. Oh no. There's no way.
154:06
And like, And so at first, you know, he was afforded the luxury of he could actually rotate and sit. He was not in like a horribly, his foot's not being even, the circulation's really not even being cut off. It's just before that. It's like having the perfect handcuff on your leg.
154:25
That makes it even creepier. And so he's sitting there out in this field and he's got equipment to be out in the wild. He's got like a little rain tent and he's got like the ability to capture, you know, water, like evaporated water.
154:39
And he doesn't panic. And he's a very spiritual guy. He really believes that basically everything that happens is sort of happening for a reason. And he begins documenting what's happened. Because he realistically is thinking, what's going to happen here is I'm going to be stuck in this horrible position. But this is a relatively well-traveled remote area. I'm out in the open. I'm wearing bright colors. Someone's going to see me.
155:07
And his journal entries over the coming days sort of suggest he was optimistic. He was rationing his food from the start. He wasn't in a lot of pain at all. He was even able to sleep the way he sort of could put his pillow or backpack behind his head. Like he tried whatever he could to get it off. He knew he couldn't. but he's like, he's in good spirits. You know, he's starting to get sunburned, you know, he's doing his best to avoid it, but he's getting sunburned and like going to the bathroom is a big pain.
155:33
But like, he's basically okay. And he's sort of looking at this as like, you know what, ultimately maybe this is exactly what I needed to be able to go out here and have this experience. Like, this is my way of getting closer to God and becoming more spiritual. I needed to like have all distractions removed. It's like me against the world.
155:52
And so it's like these really poignant entries in his journal that are like not panicked. It's like finding meaning in suffering is what he's doing. And then around like the fifth day where he's just stuck out there, now he's like the journal entries sort of take a turn.
156:08
And he's very hopeful that quickly people are going to realize he's not made the rendezvous because he's supposed to be back like four or five days in. And so it was the same day that he knew they'd expect him home. And he's like, I really hope that his wife back home, he's got kids too, are gonna quickly realize something's wrong.
156:28
But he doesn't have a way of knowing. And he knows that like, okay, let's say they figure it out today that something's off. How long will it take to find me? He's thinking it's gonna take a couple of days, like max. They know where I was going roughly, but he's also like, I went pretty far off the beaten trail.
156:44
But he's like, he's optimistic still.
156:47
So a couple more days go by. And now, you know, he's able to still drink water.
156:51
Not a lot, but he has enough that he's not going to die of thirst. He's basically out of food, which is more of like, he's not dying yet, but it's very painful. And the sunburn is like horrible. Like he's got blisters now. Like he's becoming pretty uncomfortable. Now it's like every second is pretty torturous.
157:08
And he begins to curse God. He begins to curse, you know, everything he thought he held so sacred. Like now life is really turned in a way that doesn't feel deep. It feels like this, why is this being done to me?
157:20
And then it's like 10 days go by, 11 days go by, no one's found him.
157:26
There was a search party. He didn't know this.
157:30
Eventually, it reaches the point where his handwriting is clearly degrading.
157:35
And I want to say it's like 14 or 15 days in at this point. This is deep. He's been out there a while.
157:42
And this is why I almost didn't tell the story.
157:46
It's like, it's crazy even thinking about it. So this is like this devoted father of like relatively young kids.
157:53
And his entries go from initially optimistic to a little panicked to like, what the fuck? To like degrading handwriting to then like this just devastating calm.
158:06
where he's writing to his kids. He knows he's going to die. Like it's the end. And he's telling them all the things that he wishes he could have told them if he was alive to do it. He's like giving advice to his kids and he's, he's trying to remind them to like be strong and like that, you know, your dad loves you. And that like, this isn't your fault. And it's, it's like in this final moments, all he cares about is his kids and his wife too. And it's, reading those entries and just honestly, I can't really envision myself in that position.
158:37
But in a way, it's universal as soon as you have a kid, or not even, when you have someone you really care about, suddenly like being like, I'll never see them again. And like Dan had days of 100% knowing like I'm on the way out and I will never see my children again. I'll never see my wife again.
159:02
And so his final entries are devastating. And then as of course fate would have it, he dies and like literally according to the entries, it was like hours later he was found.
159:14
Oh no.
159:16
And so like, you know, I told that story actually, I actually put it to the side. I wasn't gonna tell it at all. And truthfully, it's because I didn't think I could keep it together emotionally telling it.
159:28
Um, but in some ways I, and this is, it's earlier we were talking about like how frustrating it is when things get demonetized and it might make the impression that it's all about that. It's more like there is a business to this. There totally is. Like I do make decisions based on whether or not things can be monetized. Will it get clicks? Of course, that's part of it. That's part of like being relevant this long time. But like, that doesn't mean that I've lost sight of like the thing that really I do, which is I tell those types of stories.
159:58
And I felt like I owed it to Dan and his family to tell that story. And I did.
160:05
And there were loads of comments from people that knew Dan. And it was like amazing to see like the memories flowing in about Dan and his wife. And it was like this communal thing of people reminiscing about how wonderful he was.
160:21
Yeah, I think that that one, anything to do with kids, has been a consistent, difficult one.
160:27
Well, put us in the room with the family, and you don't have to name any names or give any information, but I'd like to know what they said to you that you walked out of, like, all right, I got to make some changes.
160:36
What do you mean?
160:36
Like, I don't know, were you always this focused on the victims?
160:44
Oh, yeah. So, like, how did it come to be that I do it this way?
160:47
Because everyone knows you meet with the families, right?
160:49
not always not always not always but you do from there's like real intention behind it i would say like in terms of how many stories that make it to the air that literally i spoke to the family with i wouldn't say it's a lot but it's a meaningful amount you know and i would also say that it's not uncommon to have a video that goes out that ends up connecting with that family, that turns into a relationship with our charity, that turns into a longstanding relationship with the entire entity in that family.
161:20
And we've seen that play out many times where we have people that we support through the charity that it started with their story that we got from public information. We told it as ethically as we could, but it's all there, it's all public. And then that was what bridged the gap and connected us to them.
161:36
But in terms of why I tell a story the way I do, you could make the case that it's because I'm trying to be ethical, and I think that's fair, I definitely am.
161:48
But I would actually go to be, I told you I'm pretty shamelessly honest about stuff. In the very beginning, when I was thinking about how do I structure stories to make them really interesting.
162:02
Something that I naturally do, but I became much more conscious of it, is if you really want people to pay attention to a story, I think it's important that you make aspects of the story relatable, no matter how unrelatable the story actually is. Is it relatable to the average person of what it's like to be a victim of a serial killer? Probably not.
162:26
but is it relatable to be someone who's scared about someone tapping on the glass or like the fear that someone's coming in their house? It is. And so in terms of like purely a storytelling device, if you're telling a story about a serial killer, if you want the audience to like really have an emotional connection to the story, You're far better off not going the route, which most people do, at least sort of generally speaking, which is like you take a perspective from like the killer's perspective or third-person perspective where you're focused on like the violence or the gore or like the horrible thing that happened because that's what happened, right?
163:00
But a more powerful way in terms of just emotional connection to the story that I have found has been effective is Put people in the mind of the woman who's running down the hallway because something's behind her. How many of us have been scared even just running up our stairs from the basement because we think something's behind us? It's like a human fear. And so when you're thinking about how to make a story really land, and what I mean by that is to be emotionally resonant with people, make them feel like they're in the story. And you can't do it if you're like, and then fucking Ted Bundy showed up and this is the horrible thing he did.
163:32
Then you're learning about something, you're not in it. And so I was telling stories naturally with like, I knew people were more invested if they could be in a story with you, you know? And so I took that approach naturally. And then I also realized that the types of stories I'm telling The people that don't get a lot of credit, or I should say the people that often are lost in the story are the victims. You know, it's like the blood and gore and like the, the, the, the tragedy is the thing that sort of makes the headlines if, if at all. But like the, the victim themself beyond being, oh, they were a wonderful person who died.
164:07
Right. Beyond that, a lot of times they're sort of lost. And I have found inhabiting the victim or the, sometimes we'll do it the other way around, but it's almost always the victim.
164:19
it leaves a mark on people. Sometimes if I've done a good job, it really leaves a mark. And I think from the lens, I think of the families and the victims and the people left behind, it just feels far more appropriate when they're hearing a story that's clearly designed to like elevate the person who the bad thing happened to, but not in a phony way. It's like, you're learning about them. You're learning about what they were doing and potentially what they were thinking about and sort of what happened to them. And when the thing happens to them, they've they've become relatable enough that the audience is like fuck that's that's bad oh my god i can't even imagine versus like unnamed victim number three of a serial killer it's like yeah that that makes for documentary material but it's far less emotionally impactful so effectively from a storytelling purely storytelling perspective i have found get the audience to feel something and they'll remember the story.
165:11
And oftentimes blood and gore feels like, you might think it's something, it's emotion, but I don't think it is. I think it's just like, it's like fireworks. It's abstract. Yeah, you know?
165:23
And I do also, maybe it's just the shame I've felt from being overseas or something, but I'm so cognizant of the fact that these are real people in the stories. Not every story is a death or tragedy, but it usually is.
165:41
And like, I'm very aware of that. And I don't hide from that.
165:46
That's an invasive technique and effective. And it definitely connects the audience. And it just happens to be ethical, just the same way that you don't really name the killers or idolize the killers, not even until the end. That's very ethical, but it also is better storytelling because the fear becomes nameless. Yep. Now, what happens if the story's better by naming the killer? Do you make that move?
166:10
Or do you stay ethical?
166:14
Truthfully, the way we, literally every story, we do this. So this is like, there isn't one that we didn't do this. So I can't even think of one where we broke the mold.
166:27
we will not give something away unless it's practically required. And like, if there's a story that literally requires it, like a good example would be, and it's one of the very few times we did something like this. Like I told a story about 9-11 from the perspective of someone who was in the building. When it went down, I interviewed him, the whole thing.
166:47
I couldn't disguise that this was 9-11. You know what I mean?
166:51
But like we have done stories that are, covered extensively and we're not trying to trick people but if you tell the story the way that i've just sort of laid out a lot of times it you don't know what that story is going to be until at the end it's sort of revealed what it is like one of my uh one of my favorite little short stories that is about a very well-known person um it starts with this couple and this is back in like the 1970s There's this couple that goes on a date out in Utah.
167:23
It's a first date. They don't know each other really at all. And they go to this like Waffle House or something equivalent. And they're having this like totally lame, no chemistry date. Like it's just not going well.
167:35
And the guy who's not a guy who would do this normally, he's like realizing at the end of the date, like this is going nowhere. I'm never going to see this girl again. And he was a big hiker. He loved to hike.
167:50
And sort of on a whim at the end of this date where they're like, all right, all right, time to go. He's like, Hey, do you want to go on a hike with me right now? And she's like, what? Like, what do you mean? Like, it's like eight o'clock at night. Like, what do you mean hike right now? Like what? But she's like intrigued, you know? Oh, okay. They're doing something new here.
168:10
And he's like, yeah, there's this, there's a Canyon that I love to go hiking in. It's, it's like Provo Canyon. It's right over there. It's like not far from here. There's a little pullout quick walk. It's beautiful. So we'll go up there, come out and be awesome. She's like, you know what?
168:27
All right, let's do it. Let's go.
168:29
And so suddenly the date has gone from being, you know, sort of lame to being like kind of exciting, you know? And so they, they leave the waffle house, they hop in his car and they drive over the parking lot and they're like giddy, like, oh, this is so cool.
168:42
And, uh, they get out and they're holding hands now. And they're like, they're walking into the forest. It's a, it's a totally, well, it's a trail, like it's a trail they're on and there's nobody else out here.
168:53
And they're walking along and they would, they would later say this to each other, but at the time they didn't say this, they're walking along, everything's exciting, but they're, they get into the tree line and they're sort of, they're leaving the comforts of the streetlights and they're going off into the forest. And as they get deeper and deeper into the forest, there's very, very good illumination from the moon. So it's not like totally pitch black as they get deeper and deeper into the woods.
169:16
like the sense of dread sort of washes over both of them. And they didn't articulate it to either, neither of them said this. This is only in retrospect. They realized they both had this feeling. They're both getting the sense of dread.
169:29
And they began like sort of white knuckling, like grabbing each other's hand a little harder, walking a little faster. The giddiness is a little bit gone. Now they're like walking with a purpose just to like get to the turnaround point and just get out of here. It's a little spooked. But they don't know each other well enough to like really even talk. They're like, what the fuck are we even doing out here sort of thing?
169:47
And so they reach this point of the trail that, again, it's a trail. It's not, you're not off in the, you're like on a trail, but the trees were pretty dense over the top. It was like a section that was pretty dark, even though the loom is pretty good. And they're like silently now speed walking along this trail.
170:05
And then at some point, the guy, he steps on something that he describes as feeling soft, just soft. And he just stops.
170:14
And the girl who's next to him, she doesn't step on anything, but she sees him stop and she stops instinctively. Because remember, she's on edge. They're both on edge.
170:24
And like, without any hesitation, without saying a word, they both just turned around, still hand in hand, and they fucking speed walked out of there. Just walked out of there. Just were like, Just going. Nope. Boom. They get back to the car. They drive home. As they're driving home, like, man, like, geez. Okay. That was fun. Wow. Crazy. And so they have this date. They never really talk about what happened out in the, in the trail.
170:47
they actually would get married, these two. Of course. Of course they get married. That's how I met your mother. Like this is great. So they get married, years go by, years go by. And one day they're at home and the wife is like, she has the news on and I forget who was where, but like one of them is in the kitchen, like making food and the other is like watching TV or it was like sort of mindlessly watching TV.
171:14
And at some point, the one in the kitchen hears the other calling out, like, hey, you got to come see this.
171:21
And there's an interview that's playing on TV with this criminal, this death row inmate who's giving this tell-all interview.
171:30
And it's effectively on the eve, if you will, of their execution. And it's sort of like this no-holds-barred sort of like being upfront about what they've done to a degree.
171:41
And at some point, this interview, which was like really, like the reason they had been called over is like, this is like powerful stuff, right?
171:48
At one point, the interviewer asked the person like, before you were caught, before you obviously got caught, did you ever almost get caught? Like what was the closest you came to getting, to being captured before you really were?
172:04
And the guy's like, yeah, just one time in particular. I was out in Provo Canyon, and I had just killed a girl, and I was dragging her across a trail to cover, and this couple comes speeding around the corner, and the guy stepped on her, and I was getting ready to kill them, but for some reason, they didn't look down, they didn't say anything, they just turned around, and they left.
172:30
It was Ted Bundy. Holy shit. The prolific serial killer, Ted Bundy. And he, they'd stepped on one of his victims' bodies. So like, that's an example of a story that like, it sort of works because it's Ted Bundy and you'd only say it at the end. And I mean, like, that's a story that like, I tried to get like all the substantiating details. And like, to be honest, like, I think there's, there's a story that exists where this happened, like exactly how it happened. I don't know, but this is their rendition of what's happened. And it's a, it's a great, it's a great story. And like,
173:00
Can I put you on the spot?
173:01
Yeah, please.
173:02
I mean, because that's a master class you just did. I saw that class in the art of storytelling for Audible.
173:08
That class? What do you mean?
173:10
That Ted Bundy. I don't want to give it away because it's so good. This is something you did with Evan like a while ago, a long time ago.
173:16
Yeah.
173:16
Can you do another one that maybe we don't know?
173:19
Oh, look, another story with a twist?
173:23
Have you heard the... Or maybe something from the book that no one's ever heard.
173:28
Those ones are not, actually, I have a story that maybe is not as great as a twist, but it's a fucking great story. Do it. Great story.
173:37
And it's actually one that I think it's on YouTube, but it's one of those deep cuts that I don't think I did a great job telling it on YouTube. I really don't, because I think that it's, here it is. All right, so it was March 2nd, 2006. There's this police officer, Sergio Pacheta is his name.
173:56
And he was a police officer out in rural Argentina, in this part of rural Argentina called La Pampa.
174:04
And, you know, I think he was part of a police department that was pretty small, but one of their main...
174:12
issues in the area was poaching.
174:15
In particular, there was this intersection called Las Cruces de las Canas. And it was like this known, just four-way intersection, sort of in the middle of nowhere, in a place that's sort of the middle of nowhere, where there was these like little, batches of forests if you will little crops of trees where these exotic birds and monkeys and like big cats would live and then and poachers would go out there late at night and they would they would uh you know capture the animals and poach And so it was not unusual for Sergio to be out there on his motorcycle, putzing along, you know, this area in La Pampa, Las Cruces de la Cana, looking for poachers.
174:53
And it was usually pretty easy to find them. Like they honestly were pretty brash about it. They would just do it late at night. There's nobody out there. They just roll up in cars and just like go set their traps or whatever. And Sergio is not a veteran by any means, but he's been doing this a while. And so on March 2nd, 2006, He's out on the road on his motorcycle and he's driving along and it's been a sort of nothing night. He hasn't seen any poachers.
175:17
And as he's nearing for like the 10th time that night, because he's sort of doing a loop where he would always pass by that intersection, the De Las Canas.
175:27
He's coming down the road and you got a picture. It's sort of a beautiful, it's very middle of nowhere vibes, but it's actually, so La Pampa's known for, it's just unbelievable like mountain ranges and like, cowboy culture it's like it's like the wild west sort of um it's like this beautiful scenery and really as you're driving other than the little little splotches of forest it's sort of like barren but sort of beautiful he's driving along there's no street lights just some moonlight and and he's looking way down the road at this intersection up ahead but again it's like several football fields away And he like looks down for a second for no reason.
176:02
He's like, looks down at his handlebars and he looks back up and he sees it's a car that sort of suddenly is the brake lights are on. It's way off in the distance.
176:12
Um, but it's clearly coming to a stop at the intersection. That is the sort of troubled area.
176:18
Um, given what time it is, given how suddenly they showed up, he's thinking they must've just pulled out like It's too odd that it would be right now. Like, I don't know. And so he's far enough back that he's like, I'm gonna slow roll and sort of like creep up and see what they're doing. So he needs them to be doing poaching to get them in trouble.
176:37
And so he's like putzing along, still keeping his distance. And he sees the car, the brake lights come off again or the red lights sort of disappear for a second and it starts to roll forward. And like suddenly the car veers to the right. This is, again, it's far enough off. He can clearly see it happening, but he doesn't really know what they're doing. They veer right and they appear to just drive into the forest that's right next to this intersection.
177:04
Forest is a bad description of it. If you look at pictures online, it's more like a crops of trees. But it's thick enough that you can't see into it, right? So the car is like vanished.
177:13
And Sergio's like, Poachers. I mean, what they're doing is a little aggressive because you're driving your car into the forest. You're going to scare away a lot of the animals, but like, okay, these have got to be poachers.
177:25
And so he's not thinking there's anything strange about this other than I'm about to go catch some poachers. And so he speeds up down the road. Not too bad. He doesn't want to totally give away his position and floor it, but he goes down.
177:38
And he gets to the intersection. And when he gets to the intersection, he starts looking just past like onto the next segment of road because it was very quickly after the intersection, they veered off from where he was. And he starts looking for tire tracks to see where they entered the forest because he can't see the car. The car's gone.
177:54
And so he's like, he goes past the four-way and he pulls his bike over to the side of the road and he gets off. He doesn't turn his flashlight on or call out because he's still sort of trying to keep a low profile. You can't hear anything. All he hears is there are these birds that are really unique in the area called like song jars or like night jars. They're called night jars. And they have a really unique sound. And so there's like this humming of like cicadas and night jars. It's like night ambience, but there's no people sounds. There's no vehicle sounds.
178:23
And there's no tracks on the ground. There's, there's no sign that any car was here at all. And Sergio's like, okay, like, obviously there's an explanation for this. You know, it's, it's dark. I can't really see too well. So he's like, okay, there's definitely poachers. They're probably just hiding from me now. And so he pulls out his radio and he calls in for backup. He's like, Hey, here's where I am. Unsurprisingly, there's gotta be a poacher out here.
178:47
But backup could be quite a bit of ways and who knows is gonna show up. And he's not like that scared of this. He's like, I need to go in there and confront these guys.
178:56
So he draws his gun and he begins walking off the road sort of broadly into this forest where he believes the car has driven off to. So into the forest he goes.
179:08
So he goes in the forest and like minutes later, as far as we can tell, and this is a highly documented story, like easy to look up, all the information's there, police reports, you name it. This is considered, well, we'll keep going.
179:21
At the same time he wanders off into this forest, One of his, I think it's his friends, but it's another cop who works with Sergio. He's at home. He's nowhere near Cruz de las Canas. He's home. He's about to go to bed. And his cell phone rings. And he sees it's Sergio calling. And like, you know, it's not his close friend, but it's someone he would pick up the phone for any time of the day. Answers the phone. And it's Sergio. And the guy's like, hey, what's going on?
179:48
And all Sergio says, and he says it twice, is come to Las Canas, you know what to do. And the guy's like, what? He's like, come to Las Canas, you know what to do. And then he hung up.
180:00
And so the friend is like, what? What did, what? Like he's trying to put together what he could mean. He knows that area is known for poachers. So like, I guess that could be, why are you calling me? Like I'm off duty. It's a weird thing. Weird enough that the friend is like, you know what? I feel like I got to call this in. This is weird.
180:20
And so he calls like headquarters and says, hey, I know Sergio's on patrol. I think he's on patrol. He just called in this weird thing about Las Canas. Maybe he's got poachers or something, but I'm sort of worried about him. And I just want to make sure that you guys know about this. Maybe you should go check on him. And dispatch is like, actually, we're worried about him because he called us and said, I need backup because there's apparently poachers in the area. The officers have just arrived on scene and they found his bike, but they haven't found him.
180:51
And so the three officers, the backup, they're there and they find his bike. It's on the side of the road.
180:59
All they were told is that he had called in poachers and that they needed whatever, help or something.
181:04
And so now they have their flashlights out. They're not trying to be secretive. They're, they're, they're scouring the area near the bike. And there's quite a, quite a decent margin from the road. Like there's a sloping down of like grass and scree. And then there's like the, the forest where like presumably the poachers could be, no one's gone in there other than Sergio, but they don't know he's gone in there.
181:24
And so they're looking and they're like, what in the world is going on here? Like there's nowhere else for him to be really beyond this forest.
181:32
And so they, uh, They do, so let me back it up.
181:40
Make sure I get this detail right.
181:43
They start scouring the area and then they find on the side of the road, there's like this little glint of like metal. It's the only thing they find. There's the bike, there's no tire tracks, there's no Sergio.
181:54
They find like metal in the side of the road. They go over and they look at it and they discover it is Sergio's gun and it's his radio, but they've been disassembled to their component parts, which like, you know, anyone could do that. It isn't like they've been shattered. They've been disassembled. They're just like sitting on the side of the road and that's it. Okay, so that's, I remember, I wanted to make sure I had that right. So that's all they find. And so at this point, when they discover the radio, combined with the call from the friend and like all of this, they're like, something's wrong.
182:24
Something's wrong with Sergio. We don't know where he is. And so before they go into the forest, they're like, we need to legitimately treat this like there's like a big emergency here. Let's call in more reinforcements. Let's really search the area.
182:37
And so this huge search party that night is set up like very quickly and they go into the forest. Again, they don't really know They definitely don't know he went in the forest. They don't know really anything. All they know is like he called it in. So they're looking everywhere. They can't find him. They cannot find him. And it starts like pouring rain and they're like staying out there. They don't care. They're looking for their partner. They can't find him. So all night, there's this big effort in this relatively small area. And other than the crops of trees, there's nowhere else to go. And Sergio's nowhere to be found.
183:09
There's no poachers. There's no vehicle. There's nothing. Disassembled gun, bike, the various weird radio calls. That's it.
183:17
The next day, it's now been like 18 hours since Sergio called in, Hey, I need backup. I believe there's poachers. There's this farmer has no fucking clue what's going on with Sergio or anything. He's totally disconnected. He's 12 miles away. He's at this, he's at his land and he's, he walked down to the road, like his long driveway connected to the road. And he looks down the road and he sees there's someone sitting on the side of the road and they're sitting on the ground and there's no vehicle nearby. This is rural Argentina.
183:48
This is not normal.
183:50
And so the farmer, he walks over and it's been pouring rain all night. So it's like sloppy and wet out. He's like, what are this person doing out here?
183:59
And he makes his way over to this person and he discovers it's a police officer who's sitting in the fetal position on the ground.
184:06
Dry as a bone, like whatever the expression is, he's completely dry and he's sort of like rocking back and forth and he looks very distraught. Like immediately it's obvious something's wrong. And the farmer asked him like, who are you? What are you doing here? Like what's going on? And he didn't say anything. And so the farmer was like, something's off, calls the authorities, the police show up and they're like, oh my God, it's Sergio.
184:31
And Sergio, when he looked up, like there was paramedics that showed up And he didn't really react. And then he saw his boss, who he was very close with. And when his boss got there, Sergio got up and rushed over to him and just hugged him and began weeping and just sat there weeping on his shoulder for several minutes. And everyone's like, what is going on?
184:50
So Sergio doesn't say anything to anybody. They're asking him, what are you doing here? We've been looking for you. What happened? And he's saying nothing.
184:59
It's clear he wants to say something, but he's saying nothing. He's just shell-shocked.
185:04
And so they bring him to the hospital. They're like, let's just focus on making sure he's okay. They're assuming that at this point he's been kidnapped by the poachers and he's been dropped off here. He's likely been tortured. They're definitely gonna be things wrong with him. Like this guy needs a medical evaluation. So they bring him to the hospital.
185:20
And at first he's like sort of unwilling to be touched, but then eventually he sort of allows them to do an exam and they check him top to bottom and he's physically fine. You know, he's actually, he turned out he was hydrated, he was fed, he was healthy. The only odd thing is he had these not severe, but pronounced burns on the underside of his feet that were like in his boot, like he had burned feet.
185:45
But other than that, you know, he was fine.
185:49
And so for a while, like the police and the nurses and the doctors, they're just like, you know, whenever you're ready, like tell us, you know, what happened to you? Cause like, we really can't put this together. It doesn't make any sense.
186:02
Eventually, he would begin to tell his story. And it is today regarded, at least in Argentinian paranormal lore, this is considered one of the most credible accounts of paranormal activity that exists. And you can look it up for yourself. So Sergio, who would retire specifically because of what he saw this night, he said he was driving down, he saw the car up ahead, called it in, poachers, right? And he said, I pulled up, I didn't see them, you know, I didn't see tire tracks, whatever.
186:37
And so I called in back up and I drew my gun and I walked into the forest.
186:42
And as soon as I'm in the forest, it was like eerie, like quiet. It's so loud normally with all the insects and the bugs and the nightjar birds and everything. It's like eerie and quiet. And it's like very dense in this little pocket of trees. And he's moving forward and he's like, as I'm walking, I'm really aware of the fact that it doesn't make sense that a car would have plowed in here and vanished. Like there'd be signs of it and there's not. But then all of a sudden he looks up ahead and he thinks he sees something that like might represent like metal, like a car somewhere in the distance.
187:15
So he like wills himself despite feeling sort of uneasy to keep going.
187:20
And he gets like, you know, well into the crops of trees to only to discover that like, oh, it's nothing. But as he's standing effectively in the middle of the trees, he said that I heard something behind me.
187:30
And it's dark and he turns around and there are these two sets of glowing red eyes that are looking back at him in the forest. And they're like looking at him in such a way that it's clear they're moving towards him. Like he can tell that there are these eyes that are set. They're moving in his direction.
187:49
And he said he immediately felt this pressure in his chest, that it was so powerful that he couldn't speak, he couldn't move, and he's just stuck there staring. And he said these two figures emerged from the shadows, from the moonlight, these gray, slender figures that are walking like a person, bipedal. And they got right up in front of him. And he said that I just immediately felt like my chest was going to cave in. And it was just, it was so clear that these, these figures with red eyes are in control of me. I can't control myself anymore.
188:20
And sure enough, he said that he felt himself suddenly begin to stiffen up and he's just staring at these eyes. And he began bending over backwards, like in a grotesque way until he was folded halfway over backwards, not like broken back, but fully contorted. And then he turned and he's like, I wasn't doing it. And I began walking in reverse, bent over backwards as he's staring at these two figures as they sort of corralled him as he backtracked back onto the road. And the whole time he's looking up at these two looming figures with the red eyes that are just not saying anything moving towards him.
188:56
He goes out to the road, and he's still bent over, and he said he felt his hands come out of his position he's in, and he reached down, he pulls his gun, which I think at that point he had reholstered, and he disassembles his gun, drops it to the ground, disassembles his radio, drops it to the ground. And then after that, he was like, suddenly I was standing back up again. I'm staring at these two figures, and they're maybe in between doing something to me. And I left out a key detail, which I'll fill in now, but it's okay.
189:23
He's like, I took a run for it. I just started running back into the forest.
189:30
Backpedal, backing up very quickly. When they did the search for Sergio, they found a single set of footprints that started somewhere in the tree line. And they followed them and it went out to the back of the crops of trees. And then it carried off into this field. There was a crop, a field of crops off in the distance. And they found the footsteps. It went out like a mile into this tree. this field but the footsteps they were like clearly human footsteps and they began getting further and further spaced apart at first this is during the night of the search when they can't find him they found these footsteps that were like three feet apart five feet five feet apart like so far apart at certain points that they're like we must be missing footprints It looked like he was sprinting and leaping, but then eventually it reaches the edge of this field, this cornfield or whatever crop it was, and there's one final right footprint in the ground and then nothing beyond it.
190:24
So that's the other detail that they had of where the fuck is Sergio, right? So now he's telling his story. He's like, I'm out there. I've disassembled the gun and the radio.
190:32
And I made a run for it. And as soon as I ran, I like jumped practically to get into the forest, to get out of the tree, to have them not see me. And as soon as I jumped, I felt like I was gonna hit the ground, but I didn't. It's like I stopped and levitated over the ground. And then I lost control of my body again. I was put back up into an upright position. And as soon as my feet touched the ground, I start running. And then suddenly I'm being thrown into the air and like I'm crashing down. It's like this, he knew the red-eyed beings were chucking him into the air over and over.
191:03
And he said he made it out to the back of the crops of trees. And he actually got a pretty decent stretch of running. Like he's, okay, they're not going to do it anymore. They're going to stop chucking me in the air with their mind powers, right? And he said, I began like taking a stride and they'd like push me in the air. And that's what started to account for these gaps. It was like they were chucking him an actual five or 10 feet with each step he took. And he'd come crashing back down. He's just sprinting along. But at a certain point when he neared the edge of this cornfield, He was so exhausted and he knew like they have full control over me.
191:36
Like, I don't know what they're gonna do to me, but I can't combat whatever it is they are and what they're doing. And so he just stopped. He just stopped and he knows they're behind him because they've been behind him. He can feel their presence and he's run off now into the back of this cornfield.
191:51
And he finally just turns around to like confront whatever or whoever this is. And he turns around and there's nothing there.
191:59
And for a second, he's like, where are they? And then he like feels something behind him. And then he turns back around.
192:07
And now it's like he's on the edge of the world, as if the world disappears beyond where he's standing. It's like a cliff and just a black void where the edge of this field had been. Like the world vanished in front of him and in the void in front of him now are these two sets of red eyes. And he felt himself being pulled into the void. And then he has no memory. And then he woke up on the side of the road 18 hours later.
192:30
And to this day, there are two things about this that are crazy.
192:34
One is they did an extensive because it was actually pretty humiliating for the police force when the story came out because Sergio was like, yeah, that's what happened. Like aliens are throwing me around, you know, like that was the official report and it was like this big deal and it was sort of humiliating for them.
192:52
the local cops and the stupid story about like how aliens did this to this guy right there like obviously you got duped by poachers was sort of the running theme sure and so they ran like as extensive of an investigation as they could really on sergio like trying to catch him and misrepresenting what happened and there's just he stuck to the story they went out there i mean they couldn't find really any details that were either corroborated or or rejected it but they couldn't find a better explanation and then more than that that particular set of trees off of the cruce de las canas intersection historically for years Taurus authorities have pointed out there are strange lights, red lights in particular, that are constantly seen in that forest that are often accompanied with silence inside of the forest.
193:39
And to this day, that's known as like a hotbed of paranormal activity and people still report seeing strange lights, red lights in those trees. And if you look at the image of that little crops of trees, the fact that it's like this one like sort of little crops of trees in the middle of fucking nowhere. And the idea that like some crazy shit's happening in there, it's like terrifying. Yeah. So it's a good story. It is a good story. Do you believe Sergio?
194:03
I believe that Sergio is telling the truth of whatever he thinks experience. So that's the thing is like, I am...
194:11
I would say I'm far closer to like a full send believer than I am a skeptic. And it's really easy to say as much because it's like, okay, let me get this straight. So we're on planet earth that's in this ungodly big universe and we're it. There's nothing else. We know all the stuff. Give me a break. We don't. Yeah. So just logically.
194:31
that's impossible to me the idea that there isn't stuff beyond our comprehension there aren't entities beyond our our powers and our under like that to me that's crazy and would be devastatingly depressing if that were true and so i'd rather believe there's more out there um but i think that with sergio if you just like look up his account like it's a guy who's grappling with like i don't know what happened This is my limited human understanding of what happened to me, and I don't know what happened to me.
195:04
I mean, the way you tell it is so good. It's a masterclass in withholding.
195:08
And definitely, definitely good for watch time. So, yeah, when I tell an urban legend or a mystery, the first two acts, I tell the story as it's true. And then my third act is break it down. Yeah. What did I find out? And I can see on my charts, people just, when I say, but is it true? People just drop off. They're like, I'm out.
195:26
They don't want to hear it. And I hear it in the comments. You ruined the story. You know, you should do it. Mr. Paulman does. You know, we're just here for the fun. Yeah. Am I making a mistake?
195:34
Depends because like there's, there's two ways to look at it. Like if you are looking at it from the perspective of your job is ultimately, if, if you believe your job is to be entertaining, probably shouldn't do that because what you've done is the first two acts, you're allowing them to suspend their disbelief and they want that. And actually I have a question for you that's going to follow this.
196:00
Wait, this is in your shell.
196:01
No, this is, I wanted to ask you this. Like,
196:05
they are suspending their disbelief or they choose to believe whatever it is, but it's like they want that.
196:12
And so even if they fully wholeheartedly agree with any of the dissenting opinions or whatever in the third act, like they don't want that because it hurts like the feeling they get about it, right? And so my question, and this is a broad question, it's like, There are millions and millions of people that tune into you and tune into me and other people that tell stories like this that are smart, logical, rational people.
196:41
Why are they drawn to things like this? And it's not a gotcha. Think about it.
196:47
I would venture, my answer would be people like to be scared in a safe environment and the unknown is scary and it's cool to think that there's something else out there and it's like safe and controlled, but there might even be something more to it. Like it's maybe the thrill of like, I don't know, like the idea that there are things out there that are scarier, stronger, bigger, like, I don't know. I think that, because I don't think paranormal is often tied to good stuff. It's tied to like scary stuff.
197:15
It's tied to like dark. Well, you're the philosopher. What, not the mechanics of the rollercoaster, why, but what's the psychology? Why do we need, because we need it.
197:26
Yeah. Um, well, you know, I, I always, that something that was profound that I learned that is so simple and maybe that's the most, the most profound things are often simple.
197:37
We only understand this, what someone told me, we only understand things in terms of like relatives, for example, like I really only actually know what hot is because I've experienced cold and vice versa. I only really know what like tall is because I've seen short. You get the idea. Everything's like in contrast.
197:57
Somebody once was in one of my philosophy classes was talking about this idea that like, we don't even realize how limiting that really is. Like, you know, there are, It is entirely possible, given the way that humans only understand things based on like clear contrasts, that there could be, let's just be cliche about it, aliens amongst us that you wouldn't actually be able to recognize as anything because they don't contrast with what you know. And it's like your brain wouldn't necessarily be able to interpret them because there isn't the natural contrast for it.
198:31
Like we as humans are so like literally known to be egocentric. Everything we do is sort of like, self-interested to some degree. And like Neil deGrasse Tyson, the astrophysicist, he gives this amazing thought experiment that sort of it touches on this element of humanity that is often overlooked, which is like, okay, So let's talk about like the likelihood of there being life outside of earth, right?
198:59
And he's like, okay, so on earth right now, you know, humans have DNA, you know, and he's much more poignant and more accurate with what he says, but I'll give the spirit of it. He's sort of like, there's a hundred pieces of DNA, let's say that make up a human DNA strand. And like that, those hundred pieces, and that's not the right number, but those hundred pieces, that's what makes us human. You got to have all a hundred. Boom. That's a human.
199:24
He's like, what's our closest? And just purely in terms of DNA. And he's like, it's probably a chimpanzee. And they have like, and he actually had the numbers. It was like 97. They got 97. They don't got a hundred. They got 97 though.
199:37
They're really close. And like, we can see that. We know that there's closeness there. They're like similar to us in the way they move. There's like a similar like family bond there. They even kind of look like us. And he goes, what do we do with chimpanzees? What do humans do with chimpanzees?
199:53
Science experiments, zoos. He's like, when was the last time you were like, you know what I really want? I want to go talk to a chimpanzee. I want to go learn about chimpanzee. I mean, maybe you do that through a documentary, but it's like we mistreat them.
200:07
human right right and those are the those are the high ones he goes what about what about like an ant or like a worm or Forget interactions with them. Their DNA is like 90 versus our 100. He's like, when was the last time you're walking down the street and you're like, oh, there's an earthworm. Let me try to chat with this earthworm. No, you might step on the earthworm and not even know. He's like, when we as humans think about what could be in terms of life outside of planet earth, right?
200:41
He's like, we automatically sort of act like they'd be like us, you know? They'd be just like us. I mean, something similar, right? I mean, maybe that could totally be true, right?
200:50
But what if we're the fucking worm? Yeah.
200:53
What if literally they don't give a shit about us that they don't, it wouldn't even register. That makes more sense to me. You know? And it's like, oh, wow. We sort of have come at this like, well, if there's any life out there, it will be nearly identical, probably worse, you know, because we're pretty good.
201:10
And like, we'll be able to talk. They might speak like some form of Spanish or something. I'm being obtuse about it, but it's like, there is an inherent human like bias towards, we'd know what they are. We could sort of see what they are and we'd get it. What if you can't? What if you lack the capacity because you're so low on the totem pole to even see them for what they are and that they don't even register as, what if you're lower than a worm? So it's just, it's an interesting way to look at the world. It's depressing in a way.
201:39
It is. I had Daniel Weitz in there. He's a physicist at CERN.
201:43
Oh, man.
201:44
Jesus. Yeah. It's like heavy prep week. So we were talking about what would aliens look like. It's kind of his specialty. He said, what if the aliens get here and they don't even do math anymore? I'm like, what? He's like, maybe they don't even have math. Maybe they're never discovered. Maybe they don't need it.
202:01
Yeah.
202:02
It's because we look at everything through this lens.
202:05
But the odds are probably not. It's probably nothing like us.
202:09
Yeah. I am fascinated with, like, the, what is it, the pale blue dot, the Carl Sagan. It's like, I find myself, and this is probably what drew me to philosophy in the first place, I have always been so deeply fascinated by, it's so, like the unknown is sort of the catch-all, but it's like, I think about this a lot. Right now, forget like the limitations of like time and space time and our ability, forget, just think about this purely simplistically.
202:45
independent of whether or not we'll ever be able to verify that there is or is not other metropolises on alien planets off in the universe somewhere. It doesn't matter if you can verify it or not. It doesn't matter if it truly exists or not. But let's assume for a second that it does. In some capacity, maybe we wouldn't be able to see it for ourselves, but let's pretend it exists somehow some way out there, right?
203:10
Right this second, again, putting aside the limitations of time and all that, Right now, whatever's out there is living their lives in their spaces, doing their things. There's a word that I wish I had right now that I actually experienced a lot when I was in Peru. I would be wandering the streets of Peru. This is when I was actually less fucked up from substance. I was more sober, having these sober walks. And I would look in the window at night, because the windows for the family rooms were usually right at the front of the house, and you could see people having dinner.
203:43
And I would look in these homes, it was sort of creepy of me.
203:47
But you'd see these people that are like laughing and like having their, or they're arguing or whatever it is. And like, it's so foreign, but it's right there. And there's a word for the sudden realization that other people have just as full lives as you do that you don't ever see or have access to like they're everywhere like just because you don't know martha who lives in kansas right now it doesn't doesn't change that she has a full life that matters as much to her as your life matters to you and so i think about that and apply it to the distant like alien species and it's like that is so intense to think that there could be Other species, other like aliens that are just simply living in whatever capacity they do right now.
204:31
And it's like both infuriating and just infinitely intriguing that we probably won't ever know. Us, our crew. We won't ever know. No, at least not the way we believe we will know.
204:42
And so I find that to be really interesting. I am so drawn to the, like there's the, the other thought experiment that sort of touches on this, which is like, and this is, this is a famous one. I forget the name of it. It's something like somebody's arrow. And it's like, okay, pretend this is to get you to think about the scope and size of the universe. Imagine you have this arrow and you fire it and it'll travel, you know, infinitely in any direction. I'm sure you're familiar in it. Like nothing can stop it. It'll go, it'll go through the earth. It'll go through black holes. Nothing can stop it.
205:13
So you shoot this arrow and basically, you know, the professor's like, you gotta, you gotta just be simple about it. You gotta choose one or the other. Does the arrow, you know, whatever direction you fire it, you know, does it at some point reach a wall where there's just nothing beyond it? Cause that's the edge of existence, right? Cause that would be the one thing that would stop it, like nothingness, right? Does it reach an end point where there's literally nothing?
205:38
Or does it go on forever, which would, you know, that's the infinite universe theory. And it's like sort of a simple thing to think about at first. And I'm like, okay, it probably goes on infinitely, I guess.
205:50
But then it's like, I don't know. And he's like, okay, well, how many people think that it hits some sort of wall, so to speak? It doesn't matter what direction, it doesn't matter. It could be billions of light years away, but it hits some wall, right? He's like, okay, there's a problem with that. Because as humans, going back to the whole contrast and understanding things, he goes, if it hits this wall, so to speak, you're implying that there's nothingness beyond it. Because it's not really a wall. It's like it's the end of existence.
206:15
Well, imagine that there's literally a wall there, whether you see it or not. As a human, based on our lived experience, we have to naturally ask the question, what is on the other side of the wall? And you're like, okay, well, don't worry. It's nothingness. Problem solved. Well, then the question, define nothingness. What is it?
206:34
Well, it's a void. Nope, that's something. Can't be that. Okay, it's blackness. No, it can't be that. It's clear.
206:40
Any example we give doesn't work because we only understand things that exist. We don't understand that the only thing we know that didn't exist that we sort of know is our pre-existence.
206:52
I know I didn't exist before I existed, but I don't have any feelings with it. No. But it's the closest thing to nothingness that I have. And so we can't conceptualize of there not being something on the other side of that wall. We can't do it. As humans, we can't do it. And so the natural next step is to say, okay, well... You know, if I can't do that, then it must mean that it's the alternate, which is the arrow just continues. The universe is infinite. But then that implies that in order for the universe to be infinite, it means everything in the universe has to be duplicated and iterated upon an infinite number of times, which is like string theory, I think.
207:27
And it's like, that means there's an infinite number of you and I having this conversation, but like, you know, this cord is pink, like, and that's a different earth. Everything else is the same. And it's like, it opens up all these lines of like, wait a minute, like, we don't really understand stuff. We don't really get what's out there at all. It's like so rudimentary, but it feels like we should know and we don't. And I love that and it frustrates me and I'm constantly drawn to it.
207:52
I love that too. You know, ask a physicist or ask someone who's religious what happened before the Big Bang and you get weird answers, man. Like it just happened in what? Well, it doesn't work like that.
208:02
When I hear your stories, I see like Robert Stack in a trench coat. I see Art Bell in the middle of the night.
208:10
Paul Harvey, always saved to the other side of the break for the rest of the story. Who are your artistic inspirations?
208:19
And don't say Evan Allen.
208:21
My sister, Evan Allen.
208:23
You know what's funny is I always want to reference him, and I always forget his name, and that suggests that I don't know him.
208:33
He's a Dateline host, gray-haired guy, and I can't believe I should always have his name on hand, but anytime I find myself watching Datelines with this guy, I need to look him up. His comments are exploding right now. I know. Anyways, there's a Dateline host. Like real wrinkled face, gray hair guy. He's just a brilliant storyteller. Like truly just brilliant. Like you listen to him and you're like, oh my, anything you talk about, I'm drawn in.
209:03
I obviously forget his name. That's great.
209:06
What's so great about him?
209:08
There is a calming feature to his voice.
209:12
Yeah, you do that.
209:14
I find that when I listen to him, not that other people have grating voices. I think a lot of people have, voices are fine for storytelling, but there's something about his that's, it doesn't even lull you into like a stupor. It's more like, I just like listening to him and he's just really, really good at like understanding the beats and like you really, like he, unlike the other hosts who are great, Dateline obviously is great hosts, He really leans in when it's time to deliver a beat.
209:45
And I think that one of the things that I tell people, if I'm talking to a pure regular person, it's like, how do you tell a good story? I probably wouldn't get into the technicalities around what POV I use or how to structure it. It would be like, A really good story oftentimes comes down to like how committed the storyteller is to delivering that story. That's right. You know, it's like, you can have sort of bad material, but if you're really committed to the bit and you deliver it with, with pizazz and charisma, you can, you can, you can really command an audience.
210:19
And I find that anonymous gray haired, amazing hosts from, uh, from Dateline who now it's killing me. I don't know his name, uh, was so good at is so good at it. Um, But I mean, this is one that is, you know, I was around incredible speakers, namely my father.
210:41
He, you know, we don't have the greatest relationship, I'll be candid, but he growing up was like a profoundly talented public speaker.
210:51
Not that he did a lot of it, but you know, at Thanksgiving, who's gonna say grace? You know, my dad, or like if there's a eulogy and he was the guy that was tapped to do it or like- I'm so jealous of that gift. He's an incredible speaker. And I find myself, not even intentionally, but I know I sound like my dad. Like the way he spoke, there was a, He would look at you and like say things with like so much confidence that what he is saying is he's like imparting it on you and you better pay attention.
211:22
But like it worked, just there's a way he tells stories, the way he speaks that's just really, really powerful. And as a kid, I was like so impressed by it that it isn't that when I began telling stories that I like looked up to him, it's that I naturally modeled the way I spoke around somebody that I thought was really good at it.
211:40
um so i would say my father is someone that i sort of naturally have probably sort of mimicked in a way my dad was a great storyteller yeah that's cool and it's just like you're around it and then i i can't believe we have to look i'm sure someone will put in the comments in the comments he's great though um when you were telling the story about sergio there was that one beat where you're like you had to backtrack yeah so when you're doing live
212:06
I'm assuming you're telling the same stories on a tour.
212:10
Do you watch the audience as to like, I'm a former standup, so like you're doing material and you're like, all right, that didn't play. Next story, do you make adjustments? Like, are there, yeah. Yeah.
212:20
Yeah, in fact, I had done a single live event in Texas in 2023 to like test the waters. It was great, but like, It actually doesn't give you a whole lot of data. It's like one time.
212:34
But what I found is when we did the tour in 24, we did 15 stops across the East Coast, but we sort of hit a range of locations. There was like D.C., Chicago, Detroit, Boston, Philly, New York. But we also were like in North Carolina.
212:48
And I and I say that because North Carolina and I lived in Virginia Beach right on the border of North Carolina. They're like such nice people. And It was towards the end of the tour, we went to North Carolina, and I had really dialed in my material. I was very confident in just like what I was doing each night.
213:08
And I remember being like, this is not going well. The two nights in North Carolina. I'm glad you're telling this, because I was going to ask you to tell me when it didn't go well. Dude.
213:18
was up there and there's a couple of like beats in a few of the stories that I had four stories that I would tell I knew the points that were gonna like have a big impact and it was just like a subdued audience like just very soon it was really hard oh man was it hard it was so hard and i came to realize on the second night we were in north carolina and i don't even know how i came to this but it suddenly made sense the audience was being polite oh no the audience was being like unbelievable because that that group of people that i thought hated not hated even weren't interested were like there's so many people after the show that stuck around to talk with me like like more than anywhere else How does that work?
214:07
You know what I mean? And conversely, I had, when we were in Washington, D.C., there was a really rowdy crowd, and not in a good way. Oh, not in a good way. No, not in a we love these stories way. It was like drunken BS, which is sort of funny, because it's like, this is so not the place for it. I'm telling these intense stories that require focus. You got the campfire going. Yeah, yeah. And the hard part was...
214:35
If I'm taken out of the story by someone, it takes everyone out of the story.
214:40
And I had to, on two different occasions, not kick anybody out, because I allowed security to do that, but I actually had to specifically tell people in the theater to stop what they're doing, really for the benefit of the whole crew. And it's really hard to get back into flow when you do that, because you sort of feel like, did I overreact? I'm sort of up here by myself. They paid to be here.
215:04
um that was hard but then conversely like there have been audiences that were like like chicago was one that was really good and that was actually the the most intimidating of all of them because it was the biggest theater of the whole one there was like i think 2900 people there wow i mean it's a sellout no sellout would have been 3100 still the way they did it is like so the entire lower level was sold out and then the upper level it was like To be honest, it pretty much looks sold out. It wasn't, but it was like, you wouldn't look at it and say, oh, no one's here.
215:35
You'd be like, wow, this is full.
215:37
Maybe the lighting or something. But from my perspective, when I was out there, it was like, holy shit, there's a lot of people in here. The other venues we were doing were sort of a little bit more narrow and maybe 1,300 people, 1,500 people, which is a lot, but Chicago Theater is like, like this huge, wide theater. And the ground floor is like 2000 people alone. And it's just like a sea of people in the lighting as such. There's not a good way to like black out the crowd. And so you're really kind of seeing the whole crowd the whole time.
216:09
But the crowd was so good. Like they were like so into it. And it's funny, I went on stage for Chicago and I had been told before I went on stage, like by the people that worked there, They're like, Hey, you know, you're welcome to have a drink out there like water or whatever. Uh, but just keep in mind, you know, this is a really old stage. If you're really careful, you don't spill anything. It's very hard to clean this. I'm like, no problem. And so I bring my mug of scalding hot tea with honey in it out there. And I'm like nervously walking on stage and I immediately kicked over my mug of tea and it spills all over the, the, the stage.
216:46
And I'm looking over at the side and everyone's like, And like they can't come out and clean it because it's just started.
216:52
That's how you always started the show. It's sticky.
216:56
And so I like knelt down and I sort of made a joke out of it. And I began sopping it up because I had a sleeping bag that was on a set prop. And I just, I began the show like as if I wasn't really doing this. I was like cleaning tea. So guys, like I'm here tonight. And then people thought it was funny and they were like laughing at it. And so it like softened the crowd a little bit and it was, it was a great show. But yeah, Man, yeah, I would say that in terms of the, I've done, I guess a total of 16 like live shows where like, okay, there's a legitimate audience that I'm telling a story to.
217:26
And I would say that the set list was basically the same, but the way it was delivered was 100% dictated on how's the crowd reacting? How good of a job did I just do on that story? And like, if I did a crappy job, I really gotta change the way I do this one and really ramp it up and nail the beats.
217:43
but like that's sort of what makes storytelling fun is like you really you can alter the way it comes off just depending on how you deliver the story so it's like how you deliver it is key and so being the advice I give people if you want to be a really great storyteller is like commit to the story even if the story sucks if you're committed to it that's what they'll remember when you tell it I'm going to close out with your book but before we do that are you going to fly in the flannel
218:08
Fly in the flannel. When you leave here, are you going to change into civilian clothes?
218:12
I will change into civilian clothes, yes.
218:13
Tell me the first time you were recognized.
218:16
Oh, man. Well, the funny thing is if I'm not in uniform, I am totally unrecognizable.
218:24
Sure, but in uniform.
218:25
In uniform it happens, yeah.
218:26
So what about the first time ever? Mine was at the urinal at a restaurant.
218:33
Oh, really?
218:33
I was recognized behind me while in a very vulnerable state. by the toilet attendant. Nice. That's pretty good. And I'm like, I need a minute. Thanks dude.
218:41
Nice. Yeah. Let's take a picture. He wanted one. I was in, uh, Doylestown, Pennsylvania, where I was living at the time. And I was, this is like TikTok days. This is like the height of my TikTok early days. And, uh, people were not really sort of like going out, but I was like in an outdoor seating area. I like a mask on the whole thing. COVID, right? Yeah. COVID. And I, uh, we were at this like little restaurant in downtown Doylestown and, and, not an ounce of me or my radar in no way am i thinking people are going to know who i am like it's it never has crossed my mind and i'm sitting at the edge of like the the seating area that's outside up against the fence there's a sidewalk that's pretty well trafficked and i'm just sitting there talking my wife my kids are there and some dude stopped and he's looking at me and i'm like what is this guy doing that you're really in my space here this is like uncomfortable and he's like mr poland And at first I was like, what?
219:35
I was like, oh my God. I was like, you follow my account? And he's like, dude. He held it up. I was like, whoa. Yeah, that was the first time, but it was like, oh, that's right. There are real people attached to these numbers of views and all that stuff. Now it's like, I don't think it happens a ton, but when I'm in uniform, I would say it's relatively common, but not a lot. It's like niche. It is. Yo, Mr. Paulin.
220:01
I was at an airport waiting at the casino. Yeah, the airport. The hotel. And I'm waiting to get picked up to come over here. And someone walked in. I had my head down.
220:13
I'm in regalia.
220:15
And someone was like, dude, that looks like Mr. Ball. And I heard it. And I turned around and looked at him. And he's like, wait a minute. And I was like, yeah, that's me. And he's like, oh, we're huge fans. But it's rare.
220:25
It does happen, though. It's fun.
220:27
What makes your channel so good is the way you tell the story, and it's theater of the mind, but you do graphic novels. By the way, shout out to Vendetti and Moody for amazing work. Oh, yeah.
220:36
Rob Vendetti, Andrea Moody, awesome team, and Evan Allen, my sister, chief creative at Ballin, and huge influence on these books.
220:44
So what does having a drawing of the story ruin, and what does it unlock?
220:51
Mm-hmm.
220:53
Yeah, well, so the reason we went with, so what does it unlock? I think the reason we went with graphic novel versus like trying to do some, you know, just sort of text only book is, you know, I started as a visual thing, like it was TikTok and then it was YouTube. And even though it's always been straight to camera, green screen and like some pictures, it's not like a huge production.
221:14
It's always been, you're sort of looking at someone who's telling you a story, and then you're also being given glimpses of the story through imagery. It's simple, but it's visual.
221:24
And as much as it's theater of the mind, and it definitely is, it's just, there's always been a visual component to it. And when we were thinking about how can we make a book feel like Mr. Balan, We came up with graphic novel, but at first, when we sort of tested it out a little bit, we like put out some comics, like little clips of it, like in our Discord and Reddit.
221:46
People weren't like, this is bad. They were like, it's great. Like, oh, it's great. Yeah, it's all right.
221:51
But then I was like, you know what? One of the things that we can do with a graphic novel that's visual as well, that would make it even more Mr. Baloney is they're used to me in my flannel and backwards hat, like literally in their purview, in their view, telling the story.
222:09
We were like, why don't we add a little avatar of Mr. Ballin's face in flannel with a backwards hat in the book? Just like periodically remind them that like your narrator is here. Like the text is meant to be my voice, but like the little bubble with different caricature animations, it's designed to like remind them that like this is the visual representation of like where it all began.
222:30
And I think it translates well. I think people get the vibe. Much more positive remarks as soon as we added a little avatar.
222:36
New York Times bestseller list.
222:38
Yeah, no, very successful.
222:41
But in terms of what you lose, and I think that comes to the thing I was just saying, which is like there's power in the storyteller themselves. You are the storyteller if you're reading a book. You're internally narrating it. And I hope I come through in your internal narration, but you lose,
223:00
like the person controlling the story which is the bard the person telling the story so i think you do lose that even if there's a little avatar in there so the new book is the terror within the marketing copy is what are you capable of so we heard a lot of dark side to mr ballin today so what are you capable of when no one's looking yeah well i mean that's that's the that's the primer if there's no ramifications what are you what what are you capable of i
223:24
Well, you know, I've sort of seen it in my own life, but I think that like this book, it sort of begins to examine stories about people that demonstrate they're capable of a whole lot of stuff that's not so good.
223:37
And there's some other statistic that is not included in this book, but it's definitely one I've read that's stuck with me. It's like...
223:46
there are some ungodly number of uncaught serial killers that are just walking amongst, like a large number of them.
223:55
And they're just, they're your barber, they're your grocer, they're your DoorDash guy, you know, whatever. And that's horrifying, but like, of course that's how it works, you know? And it's like, so this question of like the terror within or this premise is like, it's not just a thought, like there really are people out there right now that you might think you know, but actually you don't. There's something inside of them that's pretty dark.
224:17
Is there anything you wanted to touch on before we say goodbye?
224:20
No, other than I really appreciate the conversation, and it was cool to get into some stuff that I've never talked about, in particular, like the military stuff that was heavy, but I felt like you were a good person to share that with, so thank you.
224:33
Thanks, John. I thanked you at the beginning of the show for helping my channel, and tonight you have reinvigorated me for this medium, honestly. Hell yeah. That's awesome, dude. Awesome. Thank you.
224:45
Thank you, man. That was Mr. Ballin, John Allen. John's one of the nicest guys I've ever met in this business and instantly became one of my favorite people. Now, there's not much to break down here, but a couple of things. The Argentine cop story is real, so let's start there. His name was Corporal Luis Sergio Pucheta, and the case files out of La Pampa from March 2006 read almost exactly the way John tells it. The disassembled gun on the roadside is in there. He turned up 18 hours later, bone dry, After a night of rain, people have spent 20 years trying to break that story and got nowhere.
225:17
It's a great case. Now Ephraim, the buddy who left the SEAL teams to fight ISIS? That's real. And the rescue's on video. His charity posts it on their own site. One detail drifted. The footage shows the team leader carrying the girl while Ephraim laid down covering fire. But he took a bullet while doing it. The man is exactly who John says he is, and I am going to support that chariot. The Ted Bundy story? Well, John flagged it himself before I could. There's no interview where Bundy says any of that. The story lives in a university folklore archive filled with campfire legends. It's a campfire story about a campfire killer, because of course it is.
225:50
The military stories. The flattering version of John's record is out there, but he spent an hour of our conversation replacing it with an uglier one on camera.
226:00
That took bravery. John's book is The Terror Within, out September 29th. Four of the stories in it have never been told anywhere else. And everything I mentioned is linked below. I covered those nine dead Russian hikers that started John's second life. It's the Diao Pass episode. And I break down how I think it happened. It's pretty interesting. And if you like the Pacheta case, my Paskugula episode is another abduction story that the police believed. Until next time, be safe, be kind, and know that you are appreciated.
226:45
I played for Libya, scenario 51. A secret code inside the Bible said I would. I love my UFOs and paranormal fun. As well as music, songs singing like I should. But then another conspiracy theory becomes the truth, my friends. And it never ends. No, it never ends.
227:22
I fear the crab cat and I got stuck inside Mel's hole with MK Ultra being only too aware. Did Stanley Kubrick fake the moon landing alone on a film set? Were the shadow people there? The Roswell aliens just fought the smiling man, I'm told. And his name was cold. And I can't believe.
227:54
All I ever wanted was to just hear the truth So the world falls on repeat all through the night The Mothman's sightings and the solar storm still come to Agatha, the secret city underground.
228:38
Mysterious number stations, planets surf O2, Project Stargate, and where the Dark Watchers found.
228:47
In a simulation, don't you worry though, the Black Knight satellite told me so. I can't believe it.
229:00
Handlefish on Thursday night, Swiss day J2, and weapons on repeat all through the night. All I ever wanted was to just hear the truth, so the weapons on repeat all through the night. Handlefish on Thursday night, Swiss day J2, and weapons on repeat all through the night.
229:30
Hear the truth, so the world falls off and beats all through the Yeah, Gertie loves to dance on the dance floor because she is a camel. And camels love to dance when the feeling is right or wasting time.
230:03
Gertie loves to dance.
